 |
| Ex-Christadelphians accept modern scientific advances in human understanding and reject faith based religious dogma |
But in
reality, while the Christadelphian community is hidebound, leaderless, divided, conservative, exclusive,
paranoid, out of touch, largely geriatric and increasingly irrelevant; the
Ex-Christadelphian movement is a young, well educated, fast growing, confident,
vibrant community. We have several different websites, discussion and support groups
and an outreach programme designed to encourage Christadelphians to leave their
religion. The truth for the Christadelphian community is that their brightest and best are often leaving to become Ex-Christadelphians because they see no credible evidence to support their family religion.
Ex-Christadelphians accept the findings of science about the great age of the Earth and of the Universe. We agree with human understanding about Continental Drift, Evolution and Genetics. We acknowledge the latest Israeli archaeological findings which deny the historical accuracy of the Pentateuch and much of the Biblical narrative prior to 700BC. We are liberal, reformist, inclusive, progressive and academically attuned to modern times.
Ex-Christadelphians accept the findings of science about the great age of the Earth and of the Universe. We agree with human understanding about Continental Drift, Evolution and Genetics. We acknowledge the latest Israeli archaeological findings which deny the historical accuracy of the Pentateuch and much of the Biblical narrative prior to 700BC. We are liberal, reformist, inclusive, progressive and academically attuned to modern times.
So why the
misunderstanding? Why don't Christadelphians "get" what we Ex-Christadelphians
are all about? Why did we Ex-Christadelphians trade the prospect of eternal life
and endless bliss in The Kingdom and beyond, for a few short years of frail
mortality followed by endless death?
Are we the
most stupid people on the face of the planet? - Or are we on to something? Could
it be that we have found a prize that we value significantly higher than the
prospect of living for ever?
Yes, we
have. We Ex-Christadelphians have gained something that in our estimation is
absolutely fantastic. The prospect of eternal life fades in comparison to what
we have gained and we won't swap it for anything. We love what we have gained
and we want the remaining Christadelphians to share our joy by writing their
letter of resignation to their arranging brethren.
But sadly,
it's not going to happen. It's not going to happen because most Christadelphians
place no value on the precious thing that we Ex-Christadelphians have. They
don't understand it; they don't even begin to comprehend what we have gained.
When we try to explain it to Christadelphians they return a blank stare of
baffled puzzlement. They are lost for words and shake their heads in confusion
because they don't have the faintest idea what we are saying to them.
It's rather
like a wealthy American tourist trying to explain to a destitute North Korean
peasant what life is like in Manhattan. They just would not get it.
- Because we
have gained our reason. We have broken free from an eccentric family religion
and finally discovered that the whole Christadelphian thing is just a bunch of
nonsense and that the promise of eternal life and "The Kingdom" is as empty and
meaningless as the words of Christadelphian founder Dr John Thomas when he
predicted that Christ would return in 1866.
We joined
the Christadelphians because we thought that they had discovered "The Truth" but
it was only when we plucked up the courage to leave that we finally found it.
Our truth is
not a "Statement of Faith" that can be printed, copied and learned by rote. Our
truth is an unfinished journey of discovery. Mankind has travelled some of that
path and much of it lies uncharted in the future. We Ex-Christadelphians have
fearlessly resumed our journey of seeking truth and we rejoice in our travels.
We sorrow for the Christadelphians who have ended their journey of discovery and
instead they have sat down in the road, suffering a group delusion.
Christadelphian
founder Dr John Thomas wrote:
"Investigate
everything you believe - if it is the truth it cannot be injured; if error, the
sooner it is corrected the better. Never be afraid of results to which you may
be driven by your investigations, as this will inevitably bias your mind and
disqualify you to arrive at ultimate truth."
We
Ex-Christadelphians agree with that statement; even if we disagree with almost
everything else that John Thomas wrote. If those words and that philosophy were
the guiding principle of the Christadelphian movement we might have delayed our
leaving. But following the death of John Thomas, Robert Roberts, the first
editor of The Christadelphian magazine, declared that "The Truth" had been
discovered by John Thomas and he threatened excommunication to any like us who
continued to search for truth about life and the Universe.
Robert
Roberts ignorantly nailed "The Truth" to the floorboards when he fixed it in
"The Statement of Faith" and in so doing he killed it. He killed it because he
ended the search for truth and arrogantly proclaimed that he held it in his
hand. He was wrong.
For a while,
when we were Christadelphians, we Ex-Christadelphians were also afflicted by the
group delusion of our family religion. But one by one we had the good sense to
realise that all was not right in our religion and we plucked up our courage and
handed in our letters of resignation, or allowed the Christadelphians to throw
us out.
Now we rejoice in our freedom and the joy of our resumed
search for truth. To us it is the most precious thing in the World. We are never
going to return to the soporific, mind destroying tyranny of our Christadelphian
days. Instead we are reaching out arms of love to our much loved previous
brethren and sisters, to encourage them to awake out of their sleep of delusion
and to join with us in our walk towards what our founder John Thomas called
"Ultimate Truth."
Therein is
the real difference between Christadelphians and Ex-Christadelphians. The former
believe that they have found "The Truth." We believe that we are on a journey of
discovery towards "Ultimate Truth."
Reading this article made me feel like Bob Dylan did the first time he heard Elvis Presley I FELT LIKE I HAD JUST BUSTED OUT OF JAIL. As the son of a devout christadelphian family,it has been a sheer delight to know that you are all out there feeling the way I do.Thankyou so very much.
ReplyDeleteYou have brought absolute disgrace to the name Christadelphian or brother in Christ - in no way is this giving glory to God. You are ignorant of evidence that what the Bible says is 100% right, and you have thrown away the greatest hope anyone could have - this world has nothing to offer, that is why I am a christadelphian. The truth - God's word - is plain in revealing His plan for us all, and when Christ returns which we know is soon by current world events, he will pour judgement on you all and send you into everlasting shame and contempt, only to die in the world you chose to live in.
ReplyDeleteYou are pulling others from the greatest hope they could have - life eternal in God's kingdom, and fulfillment in faith and hope in this evil age which you choose to live. Readig this article has disgusted me - how dare you openly encourage Christadelphian believers to live under sin and the flesh for the short life we will live before the return of Christ, instead of eternity in God manifestation and perfect bodies, where there will be no more confusion, pain, suffering or sickness of any kind for us.
Maybe. Or maybe you are the one who is mistaken, having merely believed what you were taught as a child and now indoctrinating other young minds to believe all this nonsense and give up the only life they have in the hope of something that sounds like a fairy tale.
DeleteRather than being ignorant of evidence, most of us were persuaded by the evidence to change our minds.
I don't believe in your predictions of the future nor your empty threats of punishment. That kind of fear-mongering won't work any more sorry. Yet that's exactly the kind of rhetoric you inflict on the young to keep them from questioning. Why not just be honest and follow the evidence where it leads, being aware of your biases and doing your best to overcome them?
Suppose you were wrong. How would you know? (if easier, imagine you had been raised as a Mormon. How would you recognise your error?)
If you were wrong, what would you expect the world to look like?
CD believer; those of us (many) who at one time had convictions like you, wrote to unbelievers like you, spoke like you, have subsequently come to a sincere well-thought out conviction that we were wrongly indoctrinated. Many of us from the cradle by misguided CDs. Yes, we do dare to speak as we do. We have been where you are now, and we have found that position of belief to be untenable. If you want to find real truth, instead of thinking you are in 'The Truth', start to attempt to prove what you believe by carefully examining the claims of the bible. Read what others have found out. Examine their reasons. Trawl through some of the articles on this blog and honestly weigh up the writers` reasoning. We changed our minds by evidence, and refused to slavishly follow unsubstantiated fairy stories and myths.
DeleteSo if we're so ignorant of evidence that the Bible is 100% right, perhaps you could share it?
DeleteHopefully CD believer will come back and discuss honestly why he/she is so insistently sure that he/she is correct in the belief he/she holds. Will he/she be strong enough to discuss rationally and with an open mind?
Delete"Disgrace." I am sure in the end that Christadelphians can only be the source of their own embarrassment. When I look back now at all of the slop that I believed in, I blush with shame.
DeleteDearest Christadelphian believer, If you have nothing pleasant to say about somebody, say nothing, my bredrin. The key to the kingdom is within us; if one decides to wander, so be it, because our father has given us free choice. Bless the stray and bless the remain, for both are sons of our heavenly father. Amen.
DeleteNothing is congenitally "within us," except a capacity for gullibility. We have limited time to live. Don't waste it on foolishness like Christadelphianism. I recall as a youngster believing CD doctrine because so many important and intelligent people around me believed it. Then I saw, over time, that even important and intelligent people can be fools.
DeleteFaith, I too used to wondered why "important and intelligent people" could be "fooled" by Christadelphianism. I think this could be true of i-a-i-p in most walks of life. We see it in many other religions. As far as Cdism is concerned I think this "blindness" is as a result of Cds believing their take on belief - and therefore faith - is The Truth, and need not be questioned -- should not be question by people in this Truth. It is a case of "Business as Usual". So all their discussion classes and study groups tend to revolve around what they already believe. Feeling secure in their bubble of Truth, whenever they reflect on their Truth they get reflected back to them what they expect to get. They believe that the Bible is God`s Word - or man`s word having been guided and inspired by God, and God`s Word should not be questioned. I doubt very much if they ever examine those writings to check their accuracy against the many historical or archaeological findings, which are most illuminating, especially those concerning the ancient Israelites worship of several Canaanite gods and the fact that ancient Israelite worship was largely polytheistic. Most of these historical and archaeological studies were unavailable in the time of Dr Thomas, Robert Roberts et al, and so their particular take on Bible Truth was taken up by their followers and doesn`t seem ever to be questioned. As I said, "Business as Usual" ensues.
DeleteMy father's neighbor once invited him to a conference entitled "Man's Place in the Cosmos: Does Proof of God Exist?" Or some handle like that. The three of us went to the conference together. It was in a very swank hotel ballroom, with buffet tables groaning under the weight of pricey food. A well-heeled crowd was there: doctors, lawyers, even a movie star. Then a painfully handsome man began to lecture: they were Scientologists, who believe all human suffering and mental anguish is a result of alien beings broadcasting telepathically from remote locations in the universe. We munched on shrimp and truffles in the back, then edged toward the exit, where we were told that early departing guests were expected to make a donation for the buffet tables. "Try to stop me," was my response.
DeleteI think Communism is a religion all its own, and I think it is a vile ideology, but I do get its point that religion is primarily a toxic opiate for people who have unibrows, despite whatever diplomas are hanging on their walls. As George Carlin used to say, "Keep your stinking religious beliefs off of my life."
Faith, meanwhile, here in the UK, the Christadelphians have retreated so much that they can no longer even be bothered to put on a weekly "lecture", however, if you let them know in advance, and tell them what you would like them to talk about, then they might oblige. Similarly, Bible classes are now held on Zoom only, what a wonderful fellowship and learning environment that must be.
DeleteNever mind canapes and caviar, it looks suspiciously like they cannot even afford the gas and electric anymore.
Mancott, as I've commented many times, the most fervent and noisy upholders of the faith in my Ecclesia, were those you might think least qualified. You will doubtless understand the term "Easter leaver", those who would leave school at Easter, long before the school exams, since it was deemed a better option to get them a job, than expose them to academic failure. The mere suggestion that one was entertaining an alternative viewpoint to what they had been brought up to accept and believe, would have them shouting you down, and encouraging more Bible study, despite them never exhibiting an ability to read more than the TV guide in the "Daily Mirror", let alone have taken on a thorough program of study to arrive at their "precious faith". Meanwhile, the AB's would remain quiet, or at best sit sniggering, knowing that THEIR best chance of re-election depended on doing so. I saw this bizarre chimp's tea party take place far too many times to think that it was anything other than positively encouraged by those who should have known better. The technique works a treat too, depending on what is considered a good outcome. Those in AB positions will remain so for 30+ years, their egos being regularly massaged, and the masses have their confidence in their correctness boosted by each round of inward looking bubble (non)thinking. The downside, if it is a downside, is that those who think or oppose leave and move on to atheism or more satisfying forms of Christianity, young people with ambition "delay" baptism, and eventually the long term AB's have to make more and more "theological" excuses for their meetings collapsing in size, consisting of mainly young Iranian men, succumbing to family breakdowns, alcoholism, etc.
DeleteI am a Trinitarian preacher before, under the guidance of Franciscan sisters. But later when we studied deeply the bible, the more I have questions regarding the Trinity doctrine. By God’s enlightenment, I can’t agree with the trinity doctrine anymore. After many years of searching and studying ,and now I stance in Biblical Unitarian position, I don’t belong to any Church right now.
ReplyDeleteI study the doctrine of Christadelphians, and we have a lot of agreement, except for Satan view. I already sent them email, how they will explain that biblically. I am planning to meet them this year. I hope for the positive outcome, for God’s glory…
Um, ok. Not really sure why you thought we'd be interested.
DeleteGood chat.
Rebe, just in case it's not clear: Many on this site (including me) no longer believe that the Bible is an inspired text. So arguments about the "right" way to interpret it are at best of academic interest.
DeleteDear Rebe, nice you came to see that the Trinity is a false doctrine. It has many untruths like on this platform seem to be told also many untruths about Christadelphians, who seem to be presented here as a bunch of retarded old folks who would be creationists and not believing in natural evolution.
DeleteIn Christadelphianism, I do agree, is a lot of division, and shall you be able to find very conservative but also very progressive thinkers and believers in Only One True God Who is One and Who gave us His Word to find answers on a lot of matters.
Please are not afraid to have a wider look at the net, to find what Christadelphians really think and how they try to make the best of their life. (At several of my sites you shall be able to find links to different interesting Christadelphian sites.)
Marcus, good to have you back with us after so long away, but I would just make a couple of points of order:
DeleteIn 2015, the UK Christadelphians had a "Big Conversation", that YOU reported on. They stated that 80% of UK Christadelphians were, at that time, over the age of 60. Hence it does not seem unreasonable to refer to them as "old folks". They also stated how difficult it was (is?) to recruit new young member from "the outside".
We generally believe Christadelphians to be creationists, because that is what they repeatedly define themselves as, both personally, and in their group publications.
https://www.thechristadelphians.org.uk/booklets/ (evolution or design)
https://lifesbigquestions.org/has-science-disproved-the-bible/
Along with all the videos,talks (i've heard plenty, and none support evolution as the world knows it-just a doctored up version at best), and reading material, it is beyond doubt that the group is for the most part, creationist.
Native English speakers no longer use the term "retarded" in the way that you suggest we might do here- it is now a term of derision or at least offensive.
http://familybibleschool.co.uk/about/objectives
Please note what it says:
"It is expected that all brothers and sisters attending accept without reservation the Gospel contained in the Word of God as expounded in the writings of pioneer brethren and epitomised in the B.A.S.F. and reject the teaching of evolution/ theistic evolution.
We ask all attending to conduct themselves according to the Commandments of Christ and to refrain from entering into controversy over fundamental issues, although we do not of course wish to curtail discussion on the Scriptures.
The organisers of the school wish to acknowledge that God hates putting away and they do not wish the harmony of the school to be disturbed in any way with this kind of problem."
Thus Christadelphians attending must accepts and follow the beliefs of pioneers from 150+ years ago, no exceptions! This could indeed make them look (in your words) "retarded". So, you either accept creation or be "put away", which means of course "shut up" or "thrown out".
Reality is Marcus, that Christadelphians are not even clear about what they beive themselves, never mind being able to convince others.
Marcus, This is what you wrote:
Delete"Dr. Thomas might have had a particular vision on what was predicted in the Bible. His exposition of Bible prophecy led to him making various detailed predictions about then current day events many of which did not come to pass, as was noted in the foreword to subsequent editions of Elpis Israel after his death. those predictions make it sometimes, mainly for Roman Catholics, difficult that he could have followers, because they expect that they would accept everything their teacher would have said or written. But Dr. Thomas Thomas never claimed to be any kind of prophet, or in any way inspired, and as such his writings should not bind any body to believe other things than those which are clear in the Bible. All other findings are ideas, of which some may be accepted and others rejected, without having to be excluded of the community, because in the community there should be freedom of thought. Everybody may say his opinion of how he thinks things could be. But what we can not know for sure we do not have to accept the predictions or guessing of individual members. Nobody can or should force his or her ideas on somebody else. Every person should come into the faith by independent study and should not bound himself or herself to any particular person or organisation and not be placed under any specific ranking, like in the traditional churches, with their pope, cardinals, bishops and priests".
Perhaps you need to be sorting out your own religious group, rather than throwing stones at other religions and none. But you can't. Because Christadelphians have been doing that for 150 years and think themselves very clever for doing so.
I agreed most of the doctrines of Christadelphians, but how they delivered and practice it, totally i don't know, i never fellowship anyone of them yet. Not all people are the same, Some people just want to live a simple life rather than heavy theology to study with. The best way or approach it, in my opinion, is to build a **relationship** to God through Christ, and focus on everyday life with God, rather than academic. Believing the Bible and God, need not only in academic and knowledge , it need to be experienced and we can only experience that if we can have a good relationship with our Creator.
ReplyDeleteRebe,this is a site for people who have left them. They wont even let you join if you only agree with most of their doctrines. You have to agree (or say you agree) with all of them, then they will test you on it, then they will insist on re-baptising you). So not much chance of you becoming an ex-christadelphian. There are plenty of Christadelphian sites you could visit if you really are thinking of joining them. They are not much into personal relationship stuff either, for them it is mostly about the correct interpretation of scriptures, endless study of the Bible along with a book of nonsense called 'Elpis Israel' written by their founder. Their founder wrote other nonsense too but its mostly lost in obscurity now.
DeleteRebe, how does one build a relationship with an invisible being?
ReplyDeleteDo you approach other relationships this way?
You say this relationship should be experienced. So what should I expect to experience and how would that differ from what people of other religions claim to experience? If they have the same experience yet worship a deity that doesn't exist, how could I be sure I wasn't doing the same?
ReplyDeleteGod’s plan is too big for us to comprehend all by human understanding. **Faith ** really matters. The God of Abraham, Jacob, David and Lord Jesus Christ, have revealed in the scripture, and working through every one of us, although not everyone experience, and notice it, for not everyone have faith. I myself will testify on this, thru the many good things that happen which I can’t imagine it will happen in perfect time. Maybe some will call it *luck* or *coincidence*, for one time maybe, but for many times I don’t think so. When we pray for something, sometimes it will be given, sometimes it will not, but I will thanks Him later, for His plan is greater than mine.
I always recalled one time, after work as night shift and walking in the city, while roaming around to find some place to drink a coffee, I read an add; **hiring automation engineer for Taiwan**. Well I am not really interested, but just give a try. The agency sent me right away to the scheduled exam and interview in the hotel auditorium, when I walk in I was really surprised around 500 applicants in there. Well I prayed; **“Lord if this is your will, guide me through this, because I just supposed to drink some coffee but now I’m here”**. On the following day I follow up the result, the agency told me:“don’t expect only one was hired”, so I don’t expect, later the agency called me congratulating, I am the one.
After 2 months in working overseas, after paying all my debts. I talked to my parents via phone back in the province; devastating El nino, destroyed all our livelihood back in my homeland. I thanks God, just in time I’m in overseas with 6x higher salary offered than my previous job, just in time when I pay all my debts. A perfect time I was given an opportunity to support my parents, brothers and sister and help some of our neighbors. As a farmer son I always thanks God for everything.
How many times in the 80’s during on my grade school, when the rebels trying to invade our land, many times they tried, many times they failed, my father not even triggered his 38 caliber. I praise God for everything.
Bible is collection of stories of people who encountered God, and people who recognize God’s work in them. God is working through individual we just lack of faith to recognize it. If there is a creation there is always be a Creator.
Other people believing also to god, praying to cow, and drinking cow urine, some have group sex as there fellowship, and others shout in the name of god together pulled the trigger and bomb,,, bang! you’re dead. I don’t think this is the God that Jesus Christ being preached about.
By the way you mention- 'Elpis Israel'- I’m not interested in this book, another kind of bible? Just like the book of mormons? another fake thing again?...
I hope someday you will reconsider again the Bible, not with Christadelphians but in any Unitarian fellowship you are comfortable with. God is good all the time…
For God’s glory,
Rebe
"Maybe some will call it *luck* or *coincidence*, for one time maybe, but for many times I don’t think so"
DeleteHow did you determine this? Have you applied statistical methods across the population to determine how likely or unlikely such events are? Many people intuitively feel that events in their life are miraculous and significant because they forget that there are 7 billion people on the planet who each experience hundreds of events every day, and they don't factor in the likelihood of an event (or even several events) happening to any one of them that is later determined to be meaningful. Then they attribute the events to some deity - usually the one their parents taught them to believe in. But where was the evidence of causation? It is all imagined.
"When we pray for something, sometimes it will be given, sometimes it will not, but I will thanks Him later, for His plan is greater than mine."
When you don't pray for something, will it be given at the same frequency? How well did you test this?
Others have tested this in several studies on prayer. Want to guess what the results were?
As for your other examples, I fail to see the logic in your reasoning. So you thanked God for sending the El nino? Or are you thankful that God helped you while ignoring countless others? I can't see a positive here. Why would you worship a god who failed to prevent this? Any being who either caused it or failed to prevent it is either incompetent or evil. Perhaps it doesn't exist?
Still, if your belief in God gives you comfort in the face of such awful circumstances, then I'm inclined to leave you be. You've got enough to worry about.
Meanwhile, you still didn't mention how one could possibly have a relationship with an invisible being. What kind of "relationship" would that even be? What is there to "relate" to?
The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.
"The God of Abraham, Jacob, David and Lord Jesus Christ, have revealed in the scripture"
ReplyDeleteNope. People wrote scripture and claimed to speak on behalf of a god. No evidence for this god has ever been presented.
Hello Sir,
ReplyDeleteHave a nice day to you. Wishing you all the best.
Forgive me for my english sometimes, I am not a natural english speaker, I will just try my best.
I don’t know what you meant by how do you test this; there were sometimes I receive good thing which I don’t even pray, but when I got home my mama hug me, “yes son my prayer for you has been answered”, I did not pray, but my mama did. But one thing I know for sure God will hear the prayer of the righteous.
Regarding my example in the previous comment, I can’t explain that much, but the story of Noah would explain that well, why not everyone getting in, and if you can recall in Genesis “Joseph the Dreamer” that would be an interesting story also, can relate that.
What kind of "relationship" would that even be? What is there to "relate" to?
That’s cool and it gave me peace of mind, and joyful life, I’m nothing to worry about, even my death nothing to be afraid. Most of the time I’m travelling, my job required that. So most of time I ‘m stepping out in my comfort zone, especially when you are assigned in the middle east near the war zone.
Just thanks God for every breath I make.
If only Human can follow the footstep and teaching of Christ, I think there will be peace on earth. Sad to say not everyone have that faith. We are all sinner, but through faith in Christ we are forgiven.
For God's glory
--Rebe--
It seems to me that prayer is something of a good luck charm for you. If it "works", then good for you, but what you've described so far sounds much more like confirmation bias at work. The same thing "works" just as well for people in all other religions. How do you explain that?
DeleteHowever, the harm in relying on prayer is perhaps best captured in your comment:
"So most of time I ‘m stepping out in my comfort zone, especially when you are assigned in the middle east near the war zone. "
If you are engaging in dangerous activities fully expecting a god to save you, and if it turns out there is no such god, then your belief could turn out to cost you your life. This is risky and dangerous. Let me politely suggest that simply not entering a war zone might be a far more reliable method than prayer, for ensuring your ongoing safety.
You may of course respond that my lack of belief may cost me eternal life, but the same is true for you with respect to all other religions. At the end of the day how we live is a personal choice, but I am very skeptical of any claim about reality that is not backed by sufficient evidence. Faith is never a good reason to believe something. I need evidence and good statistical data, not anecdotes.
As for peace on earth, we might get a little closer to that goal once people stop killing each other for belonging to a different religion or other ideology (including political). I see no evidence to believe that having faith promotes peace. Usually it is the opposite, as faith often goes hand-in-hand with ideologies that tend towards violence, strong in-group preference, out-group suspicion and hatred, etc.
You did mention "middle east near the war zone" - that part of the world is probably the most religious (and thus faithful) of all! Why is it a war zone? I understand the conflict has to do with more than just religion, but if you are claiming that more faith = more peace, then that region of the world would seem to be strong evidence to the contrary. And if you track actual statistics on peace, I suspect it is actually the countries with the least faith (i.e. least religion) that are most at peace. You have internet access. You can look it up.
The idea that one can be forgiven by God for doing harm to another person also doesn't help. The other person should be the one you seek forgiveness from, not an invisible, potentially imaginary, 3rd party.
I remember talking to some CDs and having them reassure me of their certainty that their omnipotent and omniscient invisible friend exists, and that he will give them eternal life in palaces in the clouds and on earth. I remember being shocked by their certainty. I remember being shocked by the puerile nature of it, despite them being otherwise intelligent individuals. I also remember feeling pity for them. For those without scales on their eyes, this one life is clearly all we get. There are no retakes. There are no opportunities to defer anything. Live this one life. It is the whole package.
ReplyDeleteLive it without delusions. LIVE IT.
I am familiar with Marcus Ampe, and, in my opinion, he is an apologist and promoter for the Christadelphian cult. I don't think he should be allowed to promote the cult on this site, if there is a way to block him. He may be a nice person, I just don't believe he should be able to work through the material on this site in order to direct people toward sources that will recruit people into Christadelphianism. I found it to be a prison, like many of us. Why, then, would we want to allow someone to lure more people into it?
ReplyDeleteI may be wrong, but I think you seriously over-estimate his ability to lure people. Yes, I'm sure he wants to convert people, but I'm not so sure he understands what will appeal to those people.
DeleteWe get a few commenters like him, and I think I and a few others here largely view them as comic relief. So very earnest. So very sure that the real problem is that in some way we've done Christianity or Christadelphianism wrong, but if we just change a few things it will be magically right. I was like that many years ago. I don't see any harm in it because I don't think it likely to be particularly persuasive. If someone was repeatedly commenting I might consider if it was appropriate, but in my opinion a few comments here and there are fine. People make their own choices - whether to read posts here, whether to read comments here, whether to read links by commenters here, how to respond to them.
Faith, I used to enjoy the comedy when Marcus would pop up here. All credit to him, he is one of the few bona fide Christadelphians that would ever even attempt to engage us. The problem was that as soon as you either answered him, asked for a clarification, or proposed something that opposed his views, he would promptly vanish.
DeleteJon, and Faith. I don't think that we should underestimate the Christadelphians ability to "lure" people into the religion. Read this:
Deletehttps://tidings.org/articles/mission-work-in-the-iranian-emigre-community-in-the-united-kingdom/
Of particular note is that they confirm what I have been saying for years from the scant information that they release, that conversions amongst the indigenous population amounts to less than 10 most years.
Quick numbers-Christadelphians can convert 600 Iranian asylum seekers per year, from arrival in the UK, to baptism, in a few months.
https://tribunalsdecisions.service.gov.uk/utiac/pa-09766-2018
It would be easy to say that these are conversions of convenience, to avoid deportation. But this is clearly not the case, Christadelphians would be way too clever and careful to allow that to happen. Think back to your own baptismal interview, they are thorough. What is amazing is that whilst they are able to convert such people, they fail absolutely to convert local people. Neither of my children joined the Christadelphians, despite immense pressure from family. They were brought up in two separate homes, neither Christadelphian, but with one parent a "genetic Christadelphian", who along with family, pushed and pushed. None of their cousins, who are all of baptism age and above, have joined either. Despite being brought up in very conservative, compliant Christadelphians homes, Bible studies, daily readings, Sunday Schools, Bible camps, the full nine yards as it were. One is forced to wonder just why, given the success on the Iranian front.
Iranian "emigres" arrive here in roughly 80/20 Male/Female proportion, the majority being young males, so whilst the ranks of the brethren are being swollen, the shortage of "suitable" sisters for the new brethren will soon, surely become an issue to be dealt with.
Around 9800 Asylum seekers from Iran arrived in the UK in 2021, with the Christadelphians able to convert 600. This means that even at the current pace, UK Christadelphianism will be greater than 50% Iranian within a few years.
So never underestimate the power of Christadelphians to lure people in. Note that they are even sending brethren over to Greece to begin conversions before these people commence their (illegal) entry into the UK. Uncharitable people might even say that the Christadelphians are becoming "facilitators" for illegal migration. Let's home it works out well for them....
The Christadelphians are not the only religion attracting Iranians to their midst. I have read (I`ll try and find it again) a study Leeds University has undertaken about the assimilation of Iranians into churches in the UK. It would seem that one of the main reasons is, that if they convert to a Christian religion it is much harder for the UK authorities to send them back to Iran.
DeleteIn the ecclesia in which I have a long-term contact/friend, I`m told that they get free accommodation, food, financial and asylum seeking support, English language lessons, and friendly faces, which can`t be bad for anyone fleeing from persecution.
Trying to place myself in their position, I think I might find that I too, would seek whatever sanctuary with benefits in which I could become immersed, even if the immersion involved water.
Mancott, you are saying things that that crossed my mind too, but in 2022 in the UK, you are as aware as I am that you cannot say those things openly, hence why I wrote as I did.
DeleteI've been following the situation for a few years now, and were I still a " publisher" here ( I love that term, especially as I encountered active witnesses during my work today), I would certainly have written an article on it. I suspect that following the Liverpool incident of November 2021, not all Christadelphians will be entirely comfortable with the rapid rate of conversion of people from theocratically ruled countries.
I have no time for Christadelphians anymore, as I am sure you are aware, but, to use perhaps the wrong language, this latest recruitment drive for them, may yet prove to be a ticking time bomb, or indeed a powder keg that they may eventually wish that they had handled differently.
That "Edgbaston Hostel" that they speak of, is barely 2 miles from one of my homes, and I can assure you, as I have family who work there, is not quite the calm seat of learning that they describe.
Joseph, I think the study at Leeds Uni is found here:
Deletehttps://crp.leeds.ac.uk>uploads>sites>2018/08
Mancott, thanks for that, the URL got a bit mangled but I'm currently reading:
Deletehttps://crp.leeds.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/52/2018/08/M.-Stankiewicz-UGRLS-report-Iranian-Christians.pdf
I trust that is correct. Might take me a while to digest as busy with work and also have a car to service and repair over the next few days, so spiritual matters may have to take a back seat.
You make a good point, Joseph. I won't comment on a UK situation I don't fully understand, but I remember whenever we were talking about mission work one of the comments made was that we got better success with people who were less well off. The same may apply here, though it sounds like with added potential benefits to the convert.
Delete[FWIW, the ecclesia I belonged to for 10+ years specifically aimed to target more recent migrants. I think it would be fair to say that, no matter how you define success, we didn't have much success. And in my last year or two the ecclesia re-focused to be more about members and less about outreach. I believe that's still the direction it's taking, though I don't hear much about it].
My comment was more about publishing comments on this site specifically. I'm not sure that any Christadelphian posting web links here is likely to be persuasive to the kind of people who read here. And particularly not to those who have already encountered Christadelphia and chosen to leave.
Using someone's financial or immigration predicament as a vulnerability -- in order to better lure them into your sect or religion -- is predatory and disgusting.
DeleteAnon, that is not what I am interested in. I am prepared to accept this at face value that all these people are genuine converts who love Jesus . What intrigues me is why the methods employed by Christadelphians for nearly 200 years, seem to fail on the indigenous population, spectacularly, even in the case of their own children, but get past language barriers, cultural barriers, etc, to work 100x better on a specific group. The odd thing is that other "Christian" groups seem to have the same influence, on the same people (see Mancott's link), despite having the faulty doctrines that the Christadelphians despise so much. Just why is this? Why do they all not see the "false teaching" and go flocking in even greater numbers towards the teaching of Dr Thomas?
DeleteJoseph, yes, it is, as you say, "odd" that Iranians are successfully attracted to several "Christian" groups as well as by and to Christadelphian ecclesias. Is it that they, the Iranians, don`t see any differences between these groups, or that the Christadelphians haven`t emphasised sufficiently the fact that they, the Cds, are the only people who have found "The Truth"?
DeleteMancott, The more I read around this, the more "concerned" I become (concerned is the wrong word really, since I could not care less what happens to Christadelphians on an individual or group level, I'm just trying to imagine how I would feel if I had remained a member).
DeleteAs the (now nearly 3 years old) report said at the time, more than 50% of male Christadelphians in the UK, 20-40 are Iranian nationals, and this figure will have risen dramatically since then. Remember that restrictions on meetings only ran from March to July 2020, those meetings that remained closed for longer did so of their own choice, not due to government restrictions. Given the numbers quoted, it could be as high as 70% by now, especially as numbers arriving on inflatable rafts grew dramatically over the period. I can well imagine that long term and elderly indigenous members could find themselves marginalised when they are grossly outnumbered by middle eastern males, and required to sit through two meetings, one of which is not in English. In the original report, these things are, in true Christadelphian fashion, "handwaved" off as "minor cultural differences".
There are a couple of statements made in the report that perhaps reveal some worrying intent on the part of both the Christadelphians and the Iranians.
"Suddenly there were ecclesias in the prosperous south offering to find jobs and houses for Iranians with work visas to move south and join them"
So having fled tyranny and all the rest, a welcome, sense of belonging, homes and jobs in the (poor) north are not enough for these new citizens, a move to the prosperous south is required, A move that few indigenous people can realistically make. Perhaps in this statement we see some underlying motivation. My thought is that the Christadelphians should tread VERY carefully.
Joseph, I do agree with you. I don`t think that the Christadelphians are "treading very carefully" with this influx, and if it becomes a difficulty, it may turn out to be a difficulty too late. I had a word with an old Cd friend with whom I keep in touch. She says that the language difference is a difficulty, with changes to having a bi-language service, and when they have social get-togethers there isn`t much togetherness, because the Iranians huddle in one group and the indigenous Cds in another. The difficulties didn`t arise during the Covid lockdown when all was being done online, but now more of an arising one from the seen and heard differences as they meet. Although, she did say that in her ecclesia the Iranians didn`t meet with them as much as she thought they would. She feels that Christadelphian ecclesias will in quite a short time be very different from what they have been in the past. I`m not sure what they should, or can do, to "tread carefully".
DeleteWe had an elderly woman from Jamaica or Haiti in our congregation. She became interested in the CDs in her home country, after they bought her her first pair of eyeglasses. She then blessed our country with her presence, by immigrating into it, and after each Sunday service would search for someone to buy her a Sunday dinner. People grab hold of political or religious doctrines and pretend to subscribe to them if they provide such perks. I think the correct terminology for this condition is something called "desperation." Some sects and religions are more successful at all of this recruiting than others -- the depth of the beneficiary's needs plays into things, I'm sure. In any event, the recipients of these "converts" may in some cases get worthy fodder, but I suspect, in many such situations, the sects are simply filling the role of "sucker."
ReplyDeleteI am sick and tired of some Christadelphians protecting the adulterers and molesters in their midst. They are no different than other mainstream Christian churches.
ReplyDeleteAnon, (2/1/2024), probably a bit worse than the mainstream, due to their small size, and much more connected family infrastructure, and entire lack of oversight or leadership. When 30%+ of an Ecclesia are related (genetically) to each other, a bizarre "loyalty" is almost par for the course.
Delete