Review: "Christendom Astray" - By Robert Roberts

Some books do not deserve to be reviewed. For example in Adolf Hitler's work "Mein Kampf" we are told that the persecution of the Jewish people is "the work of the Lord." After that you don't review the book, you don't even put it back on the bookshelf, you toss it into the trash.

Christendom Astray by Robert Roberts is infinitely worse. It advocates the genocide of a large part of the non-Christadelphian population of the World to be carried out by Christ and the Christadelphians at some time in the future. How can anyone review a book that contains that sort of obscenity?

The Christadelphian Office proudly boast of these proposed future crimes against humanity and even publish such material online!

http://www.thechristadelphian.com/christendom_astray_lecture15.htm
 
So how does one attempt to review a "Foundation Work" that is written by a psychopath, mostly ignored by the Christadelphians? The answer is that you review it in such a way as to advocate that it be withdrawn from sale as no longer suited to our age.

For example consider the following taken from chapter fifteen:

"The Lord Jesus will be revealed....... taking vengeance on this unbelieving generation. The vengeance in relation to mankind as a whole will be destruction to the majority, and discipline to the remnant. Multitudes will perish by war and pestilence; multitudes more will fall victims to the fire which will descend, after the manner of the judgments upon Sodom and Gomorrah, and the flames that consumed the military companies that went to bring Elijah from the top of the mount. "The slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth."

"The earth's population will be greatly thinned; its reprobate elements expurgated, leaving a residue composed of the meek and submissive, and well–disposed of mankind, who will constitute the willing subjects of Messiah's kingdom....... The governments of the earth will struggle with desperation to preserve the human regime from threatened annihilation. They will fight to the last, and will hope till expiring hope goes out in the complete triumph of the Lamb, "who shall overcome them." During the interval which will thus be occupied, a righteous and submissive people will be developed by means of the judgment manifested who will be glad to hail the inauguration of the new government"

This is palpable nonsense. If the United Nations convened to discuss the return of Christ and if Christ were to provide convincing evidence of his identity and paranormal power to the General Assembly, there is no doubt that his claims and proposals would be taken seriously and welcomed by the overwhelming majority of delegates. There would be no requirement for the wholesale slaughter that Robert Roberts is advocating in this book. He is manifesting some sort of manic Victorian British paranoid obsession with slaughtering unbelievers that is quite divorced from the reality of what is likely to happen. It has nothing to do with expounding Scripture; but more to do with Robert Roberts displaying a serious personality disorder that is objectionable to modern day readers.

When Roberts was alive his enthusiasm in disfellowshipping Christadelphian believers who slightly differed from his understanding of Bible teaching over trivial matters and his insecure, paranoid and inappropriate  reaction to brethren who were his intellectual superiors, was a further manifestation of his inability to control failings in his own character. In my view the man was a poorly educated control freak who easily felt threatened. His employment as a phrenologist (making predictions and defining character based upon the bumps on people's heads - like a clairvoyant reading a palm) says everything that needs to be said about Roberts. How can we respect or trust someone like that?

Modern day Christadelphians should also be alarmed at what Roberts proposes for their fate in the near future, for he proposes that Christadelphians get heavily involved in the killing:

"What will be the position of Christ's own people at this crisis? ................... It is clear that they are not left among the nations during this dreadful time of trouble. ........... The saints co–operate with Christ in executing the judgments written. This honour is in reserve for them all. It will be their privilege "to execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; to bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; to execute upon them the judgment. ........ Thus it is obvious that in the closing judgment–scenes of this dispensation, the saints will be associated with the Lord Jesus in destroying the political, ecclesiastical, and social systems which aggregately constitute "this present evil world." This is a work of devastation for which the mere religious sentimentalists of the age would be unfit. It will involve much destruction of life, after the wholesale example of the flood, and develop a time of trouble, such as never has been witnessed since there was a nation on earth. ....................... Widespread will be the desolations produced; bloody and scathing the judgments ministered at the hands of Jesus and the saints."


This fantasy global genocidal Jihad has no place in a modern religion. It should be repudiated by modern day Christadelphians and expunged from works like Christendom Astray. Moreover one is left wondering if we can place any credence on the rest of the Biblical exposition of Roberts when we see his evident glee in the coming bloody annihilation of large parts of the non-Christadelphian peoples of the Earth. Clearly he is fantasising in a dysfunctional manner in chapter fifteen. What does this indicate for his authority in expounding prophecy and doctrine in other sections of the book? Was he mentally stable? Why is the Christadelphian office selling this book? Have any of the trustees of the CMPA even read it?

Another concern is that Roberts anticipates that the nations of the World will be innocent and unknowing during their own genocide. In the following passage he states that the peoples of the World, who he proposes that Christadelphians will kill, will not even know that a divine hand is behind their destruction. How can they be guilty if they are unaware that God is their enemy?

"(The Non-Christadelphian peoples) will only look to its proximate cause. They will never suspect that a divine hand is guiding the development of events. ..................  They will never dream that the world is on the verge of the most awful crisis that has ever occurred in its history--that divine indignation, long restrained, is about to visit the world in destroying judgments that will break up the entire system of human society, as politically, ecclesiastically, and socially organised."

In summary, Roberts is proposing genocide of billions of our fellow citizens, carried out by Christadelphians led by Christ, even though they are not aware of why they are being slaughtered or by whom. Compared to this sort of outrage, at the resurrection, Adolf Hitler and Stalin will probably win the Nobel Peace Prize!

Should this work be withdrawn or edited by the Christadelphian Office? Certainly it needs to be edited to bring it into line with more enlightened up to date Christadelphian thinking. But extensive editing of foundation works like this can lead to a less than genuine result. In other words, it is perhaps necessary for the modern day reader to know the truth of what was originally written by the founders of the faith so that they can better judge for themselves what authority they might attribute to the writer.

To "clean up" Christendom Astray would be to alter the work into something that the original writer did not intend and that he would have strenuously opposed if he were still alive. Do we have the moral right to do that? Would it not be more honest to simply withdraw the book from publication and replace it with something more attuned to current day Christadelphian thinking? Christadelphians have such works and they are already used in place of Christendom Astray. Why do they need this morally corrupt book representing ideas that they reject?

This book should be withdrawn from sale and the stock disposed off on a landfill site. Because its contents are morally objectionable and because the overwhelming majority of Christadelphians would not agree with its contents, they don't read or refer to it any more and most of them don't even know of its existence. It is not a "foundation work" of the Christadelphian faith; it has become a shame and an embarrassment to the religion.

Adendum:

John Thomas was no better. In Elpis Israel he had this to say about Christadelphian theft of other people's money in the future age:

"The estates of all the misers of this present evil world will be turned to righteous and beneficent account by and bye, in the hands of Jesus and His brethren. Only when that time comes they won't have to wait the death of the misers. They will take possession, and turn the owners adrift, in most cases into the grave." ... "All the earth will learn at the cost of much blood and treasure......"
So he predicts that the Christadelphians will be the immortal immoral of the future age. Yes it's obscene and yes you can read it free of charge at the CMPA website.

- What a disgrace!

 

27 comments:

  1. It is not possible to be able to judge God correctly or to know what he is on about unless you first correctly understand the "atonement", which simply means what God has done in Christ on behalf of mankind. It is not good enough to take an atheistic stance simply because the religion turned out to be corruptive. You also have to first understand that, through this religion, God has been misrepresented. Christadelphianism has hidden the true nature of God and Christ from its adherants and the end result is loss of faith in God when it should have been only loss of faith in Christadelphianism.

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  2. "Christendom Astray by Robert Roberts is infinitely worse. It advocates the genocide of a large part of the non-Christadelphian population of the World to be carried out by Christ and the Christadelphians at some time in the future."

    As I recall, is it not 'the saints of the most high God' which will pour out the punishments upon the people and engage the armies of the nations?

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  3. please cite your sources more specifically. I couldn't find this quotation: "The estates of all the misers of this present evil world will be turned to righteous and beneficent account by and bye, in the hands of Jesus and His brethren. Only when that time comes they won't have to wait the death of the misers. They will take possession, and turn the owners adrift, in most cases into the grave." ... "All the earth will learn at the cost of much blood and treasure......"

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    1. You're commenting on a post by an author who hasn't been involved with the site for some years. However, I had a quick look and it seems to come not from Elpis Israel but from "A Glance at the History and Mystery of Christadelphianism". This was written in the 1800s by a contemporary of John Thomas, and says it comes from him but doesn't give a reference.

      Incidentally, looking for that quote I re-ran across a rather comprehensive rebuttal I've referenced before: http://www.christadelphia.org/books/Bedson_Rebuttal.pdf

      Footnote 123 is related to that quote and is relevant here:
      "[The] claim of Jesus and His brethren’s activity as being “immoral” means he does not have a clue as to what the cleanup at the start of the Millennium will be like. Only the immoral and wicked who oppose Christ the King will be “shatter[ed] … like earthenware”. For those who “show discernment” they will “Worship the LORD with reverence, And rejoice with trembling.” and “Do homage to the Son lest He become angry, and [they] perish in the way” (Psa. 2:9-12, NASB®)."

      It seems the "Might Is Right So Long As It's Wielded By God" school of thought is still alive in Christadelphia. To say that it is the resisters of a tyrant who are immoral and deserving of being "shattered like earthenware" is deeply problematic.

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    1. That doesn't surprise me. I heard that claim a number of times while I was a Christadelphian, including the verses listed there, and I don't find the rebuttals in that video compelling.

      Did Hitler force the world to create the state of Israel? No.
      Would he have wanted the state of Israel? I assume not.
      Was the state of Israel founded in the shadow of the Holocaust? Yes.

      Yes, the Zionism movement had existed for what, fifty years, there were an increasing number of Jews settling in Palestine, and it's quite possible that there would have been a Jewish state without the Holocaust, but it shouldn't be controversial to say that the state of Israel, in the exact form we have it now, is partly a result of Hitler's actions.

      I'm not saying that Hitler was used by God (actually, I don't believe that the God of the Bible exists). But I think it would be completely consistent with the God described in the Bible. One of the books being criticised is a commentary on Habakkuk, and a big question in Habakkuk is how God can use wicked people (in that case, the Babylonians) to punish his people. In that context, saying "but Hitler is a murderer, so God couldn't use him" makes zero sense to me.

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  5. Such a loving, nurturing, altruistic God, who demonstrates his love for his creation -- humanity -- by slaughtering and dismembering it wholesale.

    It's all bunkum. Reject it.

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    1. Glenn, It`s not all "bunkum": the bible we have today is a mixture of facts, beautiful poetry, good advice, fascinating stories, written by several authors, at different periods of ancient Israel`s history, mostly at a time when ancient poIytheistic Israel worshipped various Canaanite deities. It is full of historical, geographical, and archaeological errors and many translation mistakes, and redactions of the original Hebrew, all of which are overlooked by those who think this is God`s Word and is inerrant.

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    2. Mancott, I am afraid that on this occasion, I am in agreement with Glenn, It is indeed all bunkum and should be rejected out of hand and without a second look.
      The lives, and actions, of the Christadelphians that I have had the misfortune to meet over the last 25 years have amply demonstrated that, and continue to do so.

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    3. Joseph, I can both agree and disagree with you. The Bible, as "God`s Word", thought of as inerrant and being a guide for obtaining eternal life, is bunkum. As a collection of writings, some of which contain interesting stories, beautiful poetry, a few insights into ancient Israel`s history, then it is worth reading, especially as it points the careful reader and researcher to the mystery of the origin of the God of The Bible, and so I for one would not reject it as being all bunkum.

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    4. You can get the same richness and insights and beauty by studying many bodies of writing -- and they will not involve anyone directing you who to marry, or shunning you, or guilting you, or excommunicating you, or holding you to oppressive rules for behavior and thought.

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    5. Mancott, I am slow to respond to comments these days, by the time I have thought about them, and prepared a response, another has been made, and things have moved on.
      When you mentioned the "beautiful poetry", my mind immediately thought of how the Mohammedans (to use an archaic term beloved of the Christadelphians), describe their holy book as being written in, "amazingly beautiful Arabic". Now I have no idea whether this is true or not, as I am not an Arabic speaker (stick with English and simple/slow German if you do not wish to lose me), but it does make me wonder if, perhaps, once one has been exposed to a holy book, if it is difficult not to se it AS a holy book in the future, even if one has given up on belief in it as a revelation from God.
      Recently, it was brought to my attention that some UK Christadelphians (indigenous, many years in the Truth), have converted to Islam. Now I wish them no ill, but was bound to wonder at how terrible it must be, to realise that your holy book is false, and then come to believe that an alternative holy book is true, after decades of belief. I thought about it for quite some time, and realised that this could never happen to me, the realisation of the falsehood of the one book, would prevent (protect?) me from ever accepting another. I am left bewildered by this, but am wondering if it is some kind of coping mechanism after so much Christadelphian indoctrination.
      This does not address Glenn's second comment, I shall need to consider that further. Sadly, life is never simple.

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    6. Joseph, I remember many years ago reading a Hebrew scholar saying the Psalms were so much better in the original Hebrew than in any English translation. Perhaps the Qu'ran is the same. All I can say is that the very little I've read from it in English hasn't impressed me, and some of the critiques I've seen of it from ex-Muslims have had a lot of similarities to my own critiques of the Bible (not necessarily surprising since Islam draws inspiration from both Judaism and Christianity).

      I think the Bible can be much more interesting when viewed as a collection of human writings, rather than the inerrant word of God my upbringing had it to be. I still don't go out of my way to read it, though...

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    7. Glenn, Jon has said what I was trying to impart that the Bible is, if you wish, worth dipping into in parts, viewed as a collection of human - some of which I find interesting - writings. And, as you say, there are many books containing thoughts and insights of similar content.

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    8. Joseph, Ich denke, wir sind uns einig? As a young Cd I held the view that it only was the Bible which was a Holy Book. I didn`t then know the definition of "Holy Book". I believe Muslims consider several books to be Holy, including The Torah, Psalms of David and The Quran. I suppose a Holy Book is only a Holy Book if it is so in the eyes of the reader, who believes it contains divine revelations which contain wisdom and is a source of authoritative guidance and the person uses that guidance in their life. Otherwise, do you think, read as an unbeliever, it is not a Holy Book?

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    9. Mancott, broadly, and generally, I believe that we are often generally in agreement.
      I was brought up, outside of Christadelphia, but with a belief that the Bible was indeed the word of God, worthy of respect, and that it contained lessons of value in life, and that an adherence to it's principles, as taught, were a good thing.
      What the Christadelphians impressed upon me is that this understanding was entirely faulty, due to either deliberate misunderstanding of the texts, or, as was stated time and time again, that I had applied insufficient study to those texts, to really understand the meaning of them.
      I still live my life according to those principles learned early on, mainly because of the trust I place(d) in those doing the teaching, and the example that they set in the living of their lives.
      It shocked/alarmed me greatly to hear of a Christadelphian that I had known, who had received the wisdom of 3 generations of hard line Christadelphians, around 25,000 daily Bible readings, attended 40-100 Bible schools and youth camps, Baptism, etc, and yet concluded it to be false, and instead accepted the teachings of Islam. Much like the the rather large number of adulteresses (and adulterers) within the cult, who one week were proclaiming their deep love and understanding of the Bible (Truth) and the very next yielding completely to the temptations of the flesh.
      Needless to say, I have concluded that the Christadelphians are little more than chancers, keen to exploit any situation to gain power over others, obtain wealth by deception/cunning, and generally line their own pockets by whatever means is easy and available, and regardless of the quality of the poetry of their chosen Holy book, I shall need to see a lot of improvement before I would regard them with any degree of seriousness ever again.

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    10. Joseph, A few days ago a Cd couple dropped in for a cuppa. I`ve know the female of the couple for some thirty years or so and we`ve kept in friendly contact.
      I asked about Iranians in their ecclesia. Apparently they have baptised some twenty or so.
      She made the comment, "I think they were sent to us". I refrained to answer.
      What I would have liked to have said was, "and sent to all the other
      Christian communities also?"

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    11. I had a relative who had a Down's Syndrome child. The child could never talk, learn, or work. My relative always said, "God sent him to me." An odd attitude, in retrospect, when 22 years later, stressed by the child's unending need for care, my relative committed suicide.

      I had a CD friend who was diagnosed with colon cancer. "God sent it to me," he said. "It was sent to me to make me humble."

      We rationalize whatever is thrown at us, when we view the world through the prism of religion or superstition.

      Both are one and the same.

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    12. Most will be admirable Christadelphians, at least until they get their British citizenships secured. After that, I suspect most will do slow-fade defections or otherwise hear the calls of minarets again.

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    13. I'll just note that people joining up and then fading away, or for that manner being born into the religion, being enthusiastic, then fading away, is an ordinary part of life without specifically needing to be tied to citizenship. All of those I can think of in my former ecclesia who came in "from outside" while I was a member had left before I did, and so had some of the children of members who were baptised there. Perhaps they left for the same reasons as I did, perhaps different - I really don't know.

      I object to the Parable of the Sower because it offers no scope for recognising that the seed - the word - is wrong and/or harmful and thus rejecting it (which ultimately was my path). But it clearly demonstrates that the idea of people leaving "the Truth" for an abundance of reasons isn't new...

      Could some be purely in it to try and gain residency? Certainly. But if people join seemingly enthusiastically and then, say, five years later walk away from it, that doesn't guarantee that was the cynical plan from the start. In that time they could have discovered a new way of seeing the world, a new way of life, found new work commitments, new friendships, new relationships and so much more, so that whatever worked for them about the religion in the past no longer does.

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    14. They may leave for a variety of reasons, but they generally have in common that they stopped believing ""The Truth" that CDism was selling (or the initiates very possibly never believed it). In these times when conversions are stepping stones to citizenship, that makes conversions of large groups of Middle Easterners extremely suspect, especially when the country's "natives" themselves don't want what CDs are selling.

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    15. Mancott, It is a shame that you did not answer by asking your friend just who she thought had "sent" the new members, and you could also have perhaps asked why whoever it was that sent them, decided to send them in the ratio of over 90% male gender, rather than a more "balanced" mix...perhaps the Christadelphians here in the UK have a surplus of "helpers suitable for the men" (Gen 2:18) who they need to find suitable partners for?
      Another interesting question would be to ask if the person (deity?)who "sent" them, had paid for their travel across the entire EU, culminating with the £15,000 fee for the final leg across the channel, surprising the fees that "The Angels" need these days isn't it?

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    16. Joseph, all of those questions came to mind, and more - except for the question of marriage partners - but it was not a time for conflict. It was bad enough holding myself back when the partner of the duo reached for a book from my bookcase, without asking, noticed it wasn`t written by a Cd author, read two lines and said, Well, I reject this book straightaway (100 Myths of the Bible, Gary Greenberg), then proceeded to tell me a long and convoluted story about remnants of Noah`s Ark found on Mt Ararat. Pfft.

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    17. I have a piece of the holy cross on which Jesus died, and I will sell it to you for just a few hundred pounds. It has very genuine magical powers; if you rub it on your skin, it cures acne or alopecia. We are having a sale, but for this week only.

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    18. Folkestone (UK) Cd ecclesia is now shown online as, Iranian Christadelphian Church.

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    19. Mancott, it is indeed as I have pointed out before. It also consists (from the photograph supplied) off 100% brethren, 0% sisters.
      There is of course an "English" ecclesia in close proximity.....
      Some further irony is that just as the Christadelphians increasingly drop the word "ecclesia" and replace it with "Church", so the established Church has hit the headlines for dropping the word "Church", and replacing it with "community", to give a more "inclusive" image.
      In much the same way, the Rugby Christadelphians video channel, which ( with considerable justification) claims to represent Christadelphians "worldwide", recently rebranded from "bibletruthand prophecy" to "thebiblechannel" in a possible attempt to attract an audience who might associate those with an unhealthy interest in prophecy, with cranks. I've noted that they also post far less controversial material these days, either to widen appeal, or escape the attention of YouTube hate speech controls.

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    20. Mancott, of course they would reject out of hand a book by a non CD author. In the same way that they ignore medical advice until a CD doctor has been contacted, and approved the treatment.
      It's odd to me, how they happily board both Airbus and Boeing planes, and accept that these godless people can design a flying machine, and never "refute" books about aeronautical engineering, or indeed the physics behind it, concentrating only on their luxury holiday, while would appear that every single book or scientific paper on evolution is inherently riddled with error.

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