The root problem that I see with the Christadelphian theory of Evolutionary Creationism (EC), is epitomised in this post that I have taken from the main Christadelphian Facebook page.
The question being discussed was:
"Given the common Christadelphian viewpoint that angels were heavily involved in creation, do you consider it likely that angels had a role in evolution, directing mutations, perhaps without definite knowledge of where they would go?"
John Mannell made the following comment that to me goes to the heart of the problem that the ECs face:
"Coming back to the original question, I would say that if (Evolutionary Creationism) is true, then God was involved in the process (just as he is today in forming babies, making it rain and causing the sun to rise each day, causing plants to grow etc.) But just like those processes, we will likely never be capable of pointing out exactly how God was involved."
I think that what he is saying is that although he half-heartedly believes in EC; (he says "IF EC is true") then it is impossible to prove and also impossible to define exactly what, if anything, God actually did in creation.
That's not good enough.
That's not good enough.
I could equally claim that my old teddy bear from my childhood days created the Universe.
If I was able to start a religion based upon worship of my old teddy bear; the Teddybearadelphians could start a Facebook page to discuss Teddybearadelphianism and John Mannell could write:
"I would say that if Teddybearadelphianism is true, then the Teddy Bear was involved in the process (just as he is today in forming babies, making it rain and causing the sun to rise each day, causing plants to grow etc.) But just like those processes, we will likely never be capable of pointing out exactly how the Teddy Bear was involved."
It is only when you frame nonsensical statements by Christadelphians in a satirical context like the above that you can begin to see how empty their faith is. There is a fearsome void directly in the centre of their faith and that void is called "God."
The void is filled by Christadelphians with wishful thinking and self deception. The same goes for Evolutionary Creationism. It is a convoluted excuse for the fact that Genesis has been exposed as nonsense by modern science.
Evolution is universally agreed in the scientific world to be one of the best attested facts in human knowledge. In scientific circles there is no argument about its veracity, except by a miniscule handful of religious zealots. By contrast; the theory of Evolutionary Creationism is entirely unscientific, has no support in academia and obliges it's adherents to write nonsense like:
"We will likely never be capable of pointing out exactly how God was involved."
I would not want to base my hopes of eternal life on a foundation like that.
Evolutionary Creationism is a ticking time bomb in Christadelphianism. I say don't try to defuse it. Let it rip. It's doing our work for us.
ReplyDeleteI think that John is well wide of the mark with this idea. Gilmore hasn't come up with anything fresh in well over a decade, makes a new post about once a year, that nobody reads or cares about. Meanwhile in the UK, hundreds are being converted and baptised every month in full knowledge that the vast majority of Christadelphians are young earth creationists. I pointed out recently that one of the most successfully converting ecclesias in the country is Watford, a well known total rejecter of any form of evolution for over half a century. Complete madness to think that all these new brethren will suddenly start believing in evolutionary creationism when it is an even less believable idea than traditional creationism.
DeleteBut does it matter? Billions of people have stupid ideas and we don't lose sleep over it. This is an excellent site for undermining YEC: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gutsick+gibbon
ReplyDeleteI wish that Almon and I had never started this website. We have caused so many people to waste their time and effort into whinging about Christadelphians when they could have been doing better things with their lives. Please get it into your heads Ex-Christadelphians: Christadelphians are irrelevant. They are not worth it. In the broad scheme of things, they are meaningless. It’s not they who are the fools for believing nonsense. It’s we who are the fools for not putting them out of our minds and doing something useful with our time and energy instead. Do we oppose Flat Earth believers? No. So why can’t we wash our hands of this geriatric cult and do something useful with our lives? We are the fools for not getting these poor souls out of our heads. Stop “going over old ground” and get a life, like I have. Do I post comments here? No. Because I’ve moved on. So should you. Life is too short to worry about arranging brethren and all that crap.
ReplyDeleteWhy are many of us here? Because we are still processing the trauma of having belonged to your former cult. That process is necessary, for many of us. If you were not traumatized, lucky for you.
DeleteYou make a good point. I resigned forty years ago. I have had plently of time to process the trauma of having my mind corrupted since childhood to believe nonsense by the Christadelphians. Others are not so fortumate. You need support. I take back my coment that we should have not started this website. It has done much good and many people still benefit and will benefit from the information contained here.
DeleteIf you really want to get involved in something useful, study how and why Particle Fields are the source code of our Uinverse. Ask why the Wave Function collapses when humans observe it. Ask why everything in our Universe can be quantised by quantum physics. Discover why at the subatomic scale our Universe is not real; there is noting there except pertubations in energy fields. How come our universe can be completely reduced to pure maths, most of it Calculous? These are the questions that keep me awake at night. Not how many Christadelphians can fit onto the head of a needle.
ReplyDeleteI'll tell you "The Basic Problem with Evolutionary Creationism." IT'S TRUE!!!!! The evolution of our Universe and the evolution of life, living species, and consciousnesses has obviously been guided by an intelligence beyond our comprehension. It’s not been guided by “God.” That’s a silly idea. But in my opinion Ken Gilmore is half right. Evolution is NOT random. Matter and energy and particle fields and the Wave Function of the Universe is NOT random. It’s too incredibly complex and accurate to be random. The future of the Wave Function can be determined by using second order differential equations. So we can work out the future of the Wave Function!!!! Only the resuls of our quantum experiments are random. The Wave Function itself is NOT random! The future is as solid as the past. So, we live in a deterministic Universe. Determined by what? Certainly not determined by the superstitious idea of a Christadelphian “God.” There is zero evidence for that But there IS evidence that something has predetermined our Universe, the Wave Function, the evolution of life and the emergence of concousness. Our job is to forget about Christadelphians and figure out the answer to the question that Ken is not able to answer: What is the intelligence behind all this complexity? Our Universe and life are obviously too complex to have been created “Bottom Up.” I agree with Ken there. So, if the whole thing has been created “Top Down”, what is driving it from the top? I appeal to Ken Gilmore to get his Christadelphian childhood upringing out of his head and instead work together with us to figure out what or who is driving this thing. He's a smart guy. We need his help. But we don’t need his stupid “God.” We need facts, not magic.
ReplyDeleteKen Gilmore is converting the small number of smart Christadelphians. All the rest are just cannon fodder. We should not care about them. So, he is doing our work for us. We care about intelligent people. Not fools.
ReplyDeleteWe have to be extremely careful with Ken Gilmore. He believes most of what we believe. He believes in the great age of the Earth and Universe, he believes in Evolution by natural selection, he does not believe that Adam was the first human, he does not believe in a worldwide flood and he believes that huge parts of the Old and New Testament are errant. What’s not to like in all that? That’s what WE believe! I’ve always seen him as an Ex-Christadelphian. He would be disfellowshipped by every Christadelphian ecclesia in the world except his own ecclesia of Kedron Brook in Australia that has about only a dozen members. OK he’s a bit confused about believing in the Bronze Age “God” - but we all make mistakes. Cut the guy some slack. He’s more of an Ex-Christadelphian than he is a Christadelphian. The enemy of our enemy is our friend. Ken Gilmore does more to support the Ex-Christadelphian cause than most Ex-Christadelphians do! Ken is our perfect Trojan Horse. While we throw sticks and stones at the Christadelphians, Ken is busy dismantling Christadelphianism from the inside. He puts most of us to shame. One day he will come to his senses and realise that the “Salvation” thing is as mad as the YEC cause and he could be the next editor of this Ex-Christadelphian website. In effect, the Berea Portal website is a sister website to this one. Only three letters separate us “G – O – D.” Once they get rid of that last remaining problem we will all be singing from the same hymn sheet.
ReplyDelete