YEC Target Practice: Bernard Burt


Editor's Note: I posted this from Bernard, for a few hours, a couple of days ago, hoping that Ken Gilmore would take aim at it. Then I deleted it.

But I acted too soon and tonight Ken put a few rounds on the target on his Facebook page as follows:

 

"Bernard Burt, a Christadelphian and member of The Testimony committee is a YEC, and in a post (now deleted) at an anti-theist site proudly boasts "we will continue to publish articles opposing the “wisdom of men” which is “foolishness with God".

Sometimes, words alone are not enough:"

 

Editor's note continued: Ain't that great? - It worked! :)

Ken has also responded to Bernard Click here. 

So now I've reposted Bernard's post, in the hope that Ken and Jonathan Burke will again use it as target practice. I shall also respond myself over the next few weeks and pick it apart. But with things being hectic for Christmas and some illness in the home; there might be a delay from me. Ex-Christadelphians can 'fire at will' on this target.

Ken Gilmore is hunting for YEC nonsense

So here is our target practice for the Christmas holidays. Bernard is a member of The Testimony magazine committee and a respected Christadelphian speaking brother in the UK. This is the best that they can come up with. If we Ex-Christadelphians had not left the religion, this is the sort of crap that we would have to listen to from Christadelphian platforms and this is the sort of nonsense that we would have to read in the Testimony, Christadelphian and Logos magazines.

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Hi John!     I discovered your “Ex-Christadelphian” website a while ago while looking for something else & have been keeping an occasional eye on it since then. 

You have said recently that you would like people that you knew years ago to get in touch, so here goes!

I am still living in the house I was born in, (Editor's Note: He's also still living in the religion that he was born in) married to Tracey with 3 children – Miriam, Daniel & David.  We are all ardent Young Earth Creationists, believing all that Moses and the prophets have spoken, excited to see prophecy being fulfilled before our eyes, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God.  The more that I read the Bible the more I am convinced of its inspiration and accuracy.  I believe that the vast majority of Christadelphians (young and old) that I meet at Fraternals, etc. hold the same views as I do on Creation and the Flood.

 

Your site both saddens & amuses me.  Being a “Fideist” (your term), I profoundly disagree with the views expressed in it.  Please evaluate the following:

 

• Jesus and his apostles quote the Book of Genesis about 120 times.  ONE THIRD of these quotes are from the first three chapters of Genesis and TWO THIRDS from the first 11 chapters – the very records that Ken Gilmore, Jonno Burke et al tell us we must “re-interpret”!  Jesus and his inspired apostles understood early Genesis LITERALLY.  One cannot therefore accept Jesus Christ without accepting a 6 day creation – Berea Portal are WRONG!  Their position is totally inconsistent.  The true Christadelphian position totally accepts the teaching of Jesus & his apostles on Creation & the Flood.
  
  
• There is clear evidence, both within the book itself (Gen.10v19, 13v10, 14v2/3/6/7/8, 50v10-11) and in the NT (Rom.4v23-24, Gal.3v8, Jas.2v23) that Genesis was a contemporary document – written at the time of the events (1^st 5 days of Creation obviously excepted) by contemporary prophets (Lk.11v50-51, Jude v14, Gen.20v7, 49v1, etc.), inspired by God.  All the Sumerian documents, Babylonian flood epic, etc. etc. were written later.  Genesis is the original, the rest are the products of unenlightened human minds who knew of the original events and dressed them up with their pagan mythological ideas – NOT the other way round as you allege.

• I have read “The Christadelphian” magazine from 1864 to 1888 and the 11 volumes of Bro. Thomas’ “Herald of the Kingdom”.  I don’t agree with everything JT & RR wrote – for example I don’t think that there is any good Bible evidence for the Old Earth “re-creation” ideas which I think that they picked up rather uncritically from local views at the time.  However there is no doubt that both of them believed that Genesis 1 is a literal account of the creation by God, in 6 days, of all current life forms – including man, made “in the image of God’ and not descended from any other creature – see the attached article “The First Man” by RR & chapter 2 of Elpis Israel.  You have NO grounds for implying that JT & RR were not 6 day creationists!  I believe that as a community we have now  moved on from their “re-creation” view as being a totally unnecessary compromise with “science falsely so called”.  I am a member of “The Testimony” committee – (which is by no means geriatric – we have several committee members who are in their 20s & 30s) all of whom take the Bible literally and therefore believe in a 6 day Creation.  We will continue to publish articles opposing the “wisdom of men” which is “foolishness with God”.  It is good to see that “The Christadelphian” is now doing the same thing!
  
  
• You clearly reject the New Testament statements that God raised Jesus from the dead on the third day – but do I wonder which of the alternative “theories” you find to be a valid explanation of the facts – viz:
• If the women did go to the wrong tomb, why did the authorities not produce the body from the right one?  
• If the disciples did steal the body, why did the authorities need to bribe the soldiers to say so – and why did disciples suffer torture and death for something they knew was not true?
• If Jesus did not die, but was put unconscious into the tomb (this assumes total incompetence on the part of the Romans), how did he get out of the tomb, let alone convince the disciples that he had risen and that all power was now given to him?
  
  
• Your comments on the prophetic expectations of John Thomas & amaze me.  The Jews went back to the land as agriculturalists and traders under the protection of the British power (Elpis Israel p.441-442).  They named their state Israel – as required by Eze.37v22 & 38v8/16.  Israel has now discovered vast oil and gas reserves – the “spoil” of Eze.38 that brethren have been puzzling over for decades!  The territory they occupy is almost exactly as Ob. v19-20 - and will be precisely as that prophecy if they are forced to give up the West Bank.  Russia has designs on the Middle East – is allied with Iran and supports Assad in Syria.  Britain & America are down in the area of Sheba and Dedan – in support of the Gulf States – Islam being divided between Shia (Iran) & the Sunnis in the south – all EXACTLY as foretold in Ezekiel 38.
  
  
• The nations of Europe have joined together to re-create the old Roman Holy Roman Empire Beast as depicted in Rev.17 – and through the Lisbon treaty those European nations have now given their power and strength unto the Beast which they have willingly created.  Also through Article 17 of the Lisbon Treaty the Pope is now influencing EU decision making – the woman on the Beast of Rev.17!  The Western EU (Beast), the Russian Orthodox Church (part of the Dragon) & the false prophet (Pope) are now all of one mind to make greater Europe more religious and less secular – Rev.16v13 – all preparing for the day when they will oppose Christ & be destroyed by him.  The false prophetic interpretations of the Harry Whittaker’s & Alfred Norris’s have fallen by the wayside & John Thomas has been vindicated on Europe as he has been on the Middle East.
  
  
• Your comments on Christendom Astray and the “thinning” of the population of the earth are SO humanistic!  From Gen.3v15 (the bruising of the head of the serpent) to Revelation21v17-21 God declares in his Word that he will destroy the wicked that the earth might be filled with his glory via people who BELIEVE him.  It is not wanton destruction – the everlasting gospel will be preached throughout the world after the coming of Christ – and that gospel in Rev.14v7 starts with CREATION: “Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters”.  I would love to be the immortal who knocks on the door of Richard Dawkins, Laurence Krauss, etc. to tell them the good news – ‘There IS as God and he DID create all things – repent & believe the gospel’!
  
  
• One final challenge!  Attached is a handout “Trial by Prophecy” listing 11 Bible prophecies which man has been unable to overturn.  What do you reckon is the statistical probability of Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. correctly predicting each one of these things in their days?  And what is the statistical probability of them ALL being right – as they are!  Are not these things a basis for faith?

And now I read that you want to give up the blog – John, the comments under this head are so you!  You were using the blog as a lab, you have now worked out why you did what you did – so move on!   John, I wonder if your current house is called Toad Hall?  You haven’t changed a bit – always moving on to something new – wonder what it will be this time?

May see you at the judgment seat – hope you have sorted your head out before then!

 

 

PASSAGE	PROPHECY	TEST
Num.23v9	For from the top of the rocks I see him, and from the hills I behold him: lo, the people shall dwell alone, and shall not be reckoned among the nations.	The peoples of the world are divided into two categories - Jew & Gentile - there is no other similar racial division between any peoples.
Is.13v19-20	And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees’ excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.  It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.	Babylon has never been rebuilt and re-inhabited - depsite the efforts of Saddam Hussein - confirming the truth of God's word.
Jer.25v12	And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.	The kingdom of Bablyon under Nebuchadnezzar and his successors lasted 70 years.  Babylon was then destrouyed and has been desolate ever since.
Jer.31v35-36	Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: if those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.	Sun, moon and stars have continued since Creation - the Jews / Israel have never disappeared from the world's races or the world political scene.
Jer.31v37	Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.	Man CANNOT measure God's heavens - OR descend into the inner part of planet earth - how did Jeremiah know that these things would not happen?  God has played his part and preserved Israel.
Jer.33v20-21	Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;  then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.	Man cannot disturb the motions of the heavens therefore Jesus will sit on David's throne.
Jer.33v22	As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.	Man CANNOT number the stars therefore God's purpose is sure.
Jer.46v28	Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.	Assyria, Babylon and Rome all conquered Israel and scattered them - all of these empires have disappeared - but Israel, having passed through terrible afflictions is a nation in the modern world.
Eze.20v32	And that which cometh into your mind shall not be at all, that ye say, We will be as the heathen, as the families of the countries, to serve wood and stone.	The Jews have never been allowed to assimilate themselves into other nations and loose their national identity
Eze.26v14	And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.	The old city of Tyre was never  rebuilt after its destruction by Nebuchadnezzar, there is virtually no evidence today that the city ever existed.  Only a few fishermen live in the area and they spread their nets over the rocks.
Eze.29v15	And I will bring again the captivity of Egypt, and will cause them to return into the land of Pathros, into the land of their habitation; and they shall be there a base kingdom.  It shall be the basest of the kingdoms; neither shall it exalt itself any more above the nations: for I will diminish them, that they shall no more rule over the nations.	Egypt never recovered its former glory and is now a third rate third world nation - how did Ezekiel know that this would be the case when Egypt had been one of the world's greatest nations for over 2000 years?

By Bernard Burt