By Jon Morgan In the lead up to the Brexit referendum, several Christian groups claimed that the Bible predicted a Leave vote, including many Christadelphians. When the Leave vote succeeded, they were quick to claim this trivial prediction as a stunning validation of the complete Bible message and a sign of impending Armageddon. However, while Brexit still seems likely to happen in some form, this year has seen it throw the UK parliamentary process into chaos, with no clear end in sight.
While I don’t think scripture makes any statement on Brexit, I do think this saga has some important lessons about Bible prophecy interpretation that stretch far beyond Brexit. It’s all here: A crystal-ball gazing seer, Armageddon, even a reference to my favourite fiction from last year. Some of it is mocking, but I don’t apologise - if Christadelphians didn’t want that, they should have chosen something better than Brexit to nail their colours to the mast over.
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If Boris wins next Thursday and starts the brexit process, I'm sure most CDs will be whipped into a frenzy as they listen to triumphant lectures about how accurately the events of the world are panning out.
ReplyDeleteBut at the same time, their older failed prophecies will be quietly swept under the carpet and ignored as they focus on this latest development.
Mark,
DeleteI see that as a good thing, elderly christadelpphians (80%+ of UK Christadelhians are over 60) crowing about brexit success while living off their fat pension pots, and declaring Jesus to be back "within a generation", will only have the effect of further distancing themselves from the young people that they already fail to attract.
CD families are split by the brexit issue already, and those in their thirties and early forties are ever less likely to wish to lead what has become a band of aggressive and deluded pensioners.
I'll make a prediction now. In 25 years time, 90% of Christadelphians alive today will be dead.....
Jon,
ReplyDeleteCould you share the link for that picture of the banner holders? I seem to recall that this was a stunt organised by "bibleinthenews", who at the time linked a video showing the two grinning poster holders being more interested in their smartphones than spreading the gospel. I'm sure it was at some sort of recent brexit rally in London, but I've had a look on the site and can't find it now. I recall being surprised that Christadelphians had actually got involved in a political event.
Joseph, I saw it on the ex-CD Facebook group, and it was part of the protests on the original Brexit date (29 March). It can be seen in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pykn3_J99pc (around the 2:21 mark), and also referenced, as you say, in a Bible in the News podcast at http://www.bibleinthenews.com/Podcasts/648. I'm sure I saw other CD sources discussing it at the time, but can't find the links.
ReplyDeleteLike you, I was surprised by Christadelphians being involved in a political event.
Thanks Jon, that's the one. I could not recall the date, I was searching a bit too recently. Yes, one of leading Christadelphian Crank Matt Davies efforts. Matt is part of Nottingham Forest Road, which no surprise is also registered as a charity, so could just possibly be using tax relief to make political statement such as this.
DeleteWell, the Conservatives won the election conclusively, like they were expected to, and so I saw another excited post about how Brexit was paving the way for Armageddon (though it seems to have since been deleted).
ReplyDeleteMy conclusion remains the same: The Bible didn't prophesy Brexit, and so, whether Brexit happens or not, it does nothing to establish the truth of the Bible.
I reiterate my own thinking that Ex-Christadelphianism is not a position that you should take, but rather it is a journey you undertake to escape the religion. It should be a temporary phase in your life. It should be a healing process. But you will never heal if you keep picking at the psychological wounds inflicted on you by the Christadelphians. You have to get them out of your life and out of your mind completely. Worrying about Christadelphian Brexit and all their other tosh is not healthy. Try to get yourself to the state of mind where you can mentally resign from the Ex-Christadelphians and move on, without giving this religion another thought. Swim in the ocean of reason and rational thinking and don't be tempted back into the dank Christadelphian swamp of Brexit, Gog and all of the other nonsense that blighted our lives for so long. Get over it. Erase the Christadelphians from your mind and delete this website from your favourites. They are doing a fantastic job here, but think of this website as a hospital. Once they have got you mentally well, thank them, leave, and never return, or you will not fully recover.
ReplyDeleteHello John.
DeleteGood advice, but it`s not easy to achieve. So many little reminders. Even driving past a CD meeting hall, taking a pinch of bread between the fingers from a breadboard, and some of us do meet with Christadelphian friends. Doesn`t stop me from being relieved to be out, but the reminders are for ever?
John, any reader is of course welcome to read as little or as much as they like, and has the freedom to choose any life path they wish free of the constraints Christadelphian teachings and practice places on them. That is what I have done, after all - writing about religion is just one part of a life far more varied than my Christadelphian life was. While I only post articles here that I think have valid critiques of Christadelphians or might be useful to ex-Christadelphians, anyone is welcome to check out the rest of my posts to see the balance. Analysing and recovering from religion is a significant component of my blog (the religion was a significant part of my first 25 - 30 years), but it's not everything.
DeleteI've said before, I don't think the gold standard is having zero contact with Christadelphia, particularly for those like me with family and friend connections they wish to maintain. I think a much more important standard is whether it controls me, and I can fairly confidently say now it doesn't control me, at all. I hope that posts like this can be useful to others, but a big part of them is for me. Writing things out in exhaustive and sometimes exhausting detail helps me better understand my former beliefs, and then makes it possible for me to confidently dismiss them. Hence their having no control over me. Freedom from that control is showed in being able to question, deconstruct and mock teachings that were once so important to me.
Religion is a very human endeavour, and tells us all kinds of interesting things about humans. It can be frustrating, or entertaining, or tragic, or fascinating.
In trying to understand more about religion in general, not just my former religion, I have been able to understand myself better, to understand the world better, and along the way have made some great friends (most but not all ex-Christians) with whom I discuss all kinds of things (not just religion). It wasn't what I set out to do or expected to do when leaving Christadelphia, but it works for me.
Fast forward five or ten years, and I probably hope that I wouldn't have the need to write as much about religion as I do now. But I also hope that I would still be in close contact with my family, many of whom will probably still be Christadelphian.
I have long left the thrall of christadelphia behind, but still have close family and friends who are deeply involved with them. I visit here now and again, not to pick at old wounds, but because I am fascinated by the willingness of intelligent people to accept the teachings of an ancient collection of fables. Members of my own family have their minds fuddled and their lives stagnated by their lifelong indoctrination. Unable to see beyond the echo chamber they inhabit, they live in hope of a fantasy world that will never arrive.
DeleteI find it baffling that otherwise normal adults with all the comforts and knowledge that the 21st century can provide are so gullible.
Yes, ideally, we should each move along in time. For some, that takes just a few weeks. For others it takes years or decades, depending on the impact this group had on the individual. If you don't see any progress happening after some time has passed, yes, indeed, examine why. But move at your own pace, as long as progress is occurring. I suspect John would agree with these thoughts.
DeleteWasnt predicited to be a landslide victory.Polls are not 100% Gospel always.
ReplyDeleteThe combination of the way the First Past the Post voting system was expected to work and the general Brexit landscape meant that the Conservatives were more likely to get a majority, and as a result that Brexit was more likely to happen in some form. That's not certainties, just probabilities.
DeleteBut the bottom line is still that Brexit has nothing to do with Bible prophecy.
Paul, of course polls are not 100%, that is why we have elections. Polls are so we can get an idea of what is going on before we go to bed, it makes for better TV!
DeleteWhat on earth do you mean by "Gospel always"? Some religious nonsense?
It took a matter of hours before Christadelphians were off on their usual prophecy babble other the election result. It may have been wiser for them to look at what went wrong for the party that resoundingly lost and see if they could learn anything from that.
DeleteThe leader was old, had ideas and policies from 35 years ago, and believed that these same policies would appeal to those not even born 35 years ago.
The policies were formed by a small group that did not represent the country as a whole, but rather had been put into place by those already sympathetic to their ideas.
The policies were heavily promoted to, and mostly believed by young people with little life experience, who lived inside a social media bubble of reinforcement, with little ability to evaluate other alternative realities.
They had policies and plans that those outside their bubble described as "wish lists", a health service without funding limits, reduced working hours, free broadband, new houses, new boilers,taking money off the rich, all free! (sounds like an earthly version of the Kingdom), not surprisingly, few believed them. Few believe the Christadelphians either.
Which is just what Christ actally predicted would be the case.
Delete"For many are called FEW chosen".
Ex. Christadelphian, have you ever wondered how many different small denominations with conflicting interpretations of the Bible quote the "many called, few chosen" verse?
DeleteEx.Christadelphian, since you are "Ex.Christadelphian", is it safe to assume that you were not chosen?
DeleteAt the time when those words were spoken/written, the "chosen" sect was a tiny minority, and so in that light it is surely no surprise for them to "predict" their own situation at the time. No religious writer (as far as I am aware) ever claimed that their own religion was not the correct one. They all instead wanted everyone to believe theirs was special and unique.
DeleteIt is a fact that the vast majority of religious sects will not survive and of those that do, most will remain a minority. Thus the prediction that only a "few" would be chosen seems unimpressive since that is the most likely outcome for any sect. If the sect disappears, well then there is no one to remember the quotation so there is no issue there either.
It is actually far more difficult (and less likely) for someone to predict that their sect will NOT be the few. The odds are stacked well against it, especially the longer time goes on.
But the real interesting thing is, as Jon mentioned, how every denomination applies those same verses to themselves. I'm sure even the not-so-small denominations have their own interpretation for why such verses still apply to them.
I don't think any of us really know either way..100%.
ReplyDeleteJust using slang for polls being 100%. You didnt get my slang.
ReplyDeleteNo worries Paul. I get it now. Keep contributing.
DeleteThink we will butt heads eventually..but too bad.. will do!😉
ReplyDeleteI suspect the Christadelphian excitement over Brexit is inversely proportional to the number of their predictions they actually expect will come true. Their reaction smacks of something along the lines of "wow, we got one right!" - and that's on an event with only 2 possible outcomes.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jon. The Bible never predicted Britain would join the EU, nor did it predict Britain would leave. I also agree further that the Bible never predicted the EU either.
But for those Christadelphians who see Brexit as a sign of an almighty, intelligent god slowly working out its perfect plan for humanity, I can only assume we're not looking at the same unfolding of events.
Just a post election, post holiday season update. UK Christadelphians are once again promoting the beliefs of Jim Cowie with regard to Brexit, and specifically, how the actual vote was not really a vote at all. They are repeating the previously stated belief that because the vote was running close, God specifically sent rain over from continental Europe, to ensure that 2 million southern UK voters could not vote remain.
ReplyDeleteMy conclusion is that since this has now been repeated several times in presentations, that it is now held to be a correct belief. I have to say that as a lifelong resident of the UK, some bad weather did not strike me as odd in any way, it's just the normal thing here, however, since this belief has never to my knowledge been challenged by Christadelphians, I now accept that forms part of their religious beliefs.
Likewise, the same talk (referenced below) clarifies the Christadelphian belief, stated regularly, that we are only a "generation" away from the return of Christ. In fact Jim Cowie makes it clear that for various reasons, as we have now left Europe, The raising of the dead/return of Christ/Armageddon will occur in 2030. I actually found it difficult to understand what was predicted for 2030 (please watch from 23:30 and let me have your thoughts). I'm not 100% certain if Christ is back in 2030, with Armageddon in 2040?
What I am expecting to see now that this has been clarified, is some considerable changes in how Christadelphians live their lives, I'm expecting to see pension pots being emptied and houses and businesses sold,holidays cancelled etc, and a real focus on spreading this truth throughout the world, 24/7/365. I also expect the young adults in my former family to abandon ideas of higher education (since it will be pointless, Jesus will be back within a few short years of them qualifying), and concentrating instead on the religion, with the brethren and sisters supporting them in this work.
I am genuinely surprised that the Christadelphians have taken these things onboard as facts, because I have heard that some UK Ecclesias are as split down the middle on the issue as the general population, with some quite senior members very unhappy at the stance taken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLKhXxRQIYE
Thanks, Joseph.
DeleteAs I said in my article, I was in London on the day of the referendum (visited Hampton Court Palace, actually). I remember it as a wet day with some line closures, but I guess I was lucky - it didn't stop me doing anything I wanted to do. I saw the comments about the weather affecting voting in the news before Christadelphians jumped on it, ran the numbers, and decided I didn't think it would make a difference. And the numbers in that talk match my conclusion: He claims 2 million people were prevented from voting, and assumes they would have all voted remain. But it was actually more like 60 - 70% voting remain in those areas, so it wouldn't be enough to overcome the 1.2 million deficit. As I put it in my article: "London doesn’t have the population to overrule the rest of the UK". I got in a Facebook debate over it a day or two later, but hadn't heard anything about it since. Sad that it has popped up again.
I only watched about 5 minutes from the point you mentioned, and couldn't take any more. Even if you accept the Bible what was said is complete nonsense - and I don't accept the Bible anyway.
The Bible does not say Tarshish is Britain. The Bible does not focus in any way on the two legs in Daniel's image. And the Bible most definitely does not say anything about whether Australia or NZ will change their flag or become a republic (I'd like one of Australia or NZ to change their flag just because they're too similar to each other).
I didn't understand the 10 year thing either. Not a clue what he's talking about, or how Brexit, the resurrection of the dead, and Armageddon are meant to fit together. I remember at a youth group camp years ago someone tried to explain to me how all the different year gaps worked, and it made no sense to me then. So I'm not in any hurry to understand it now I reject the Bible...
The same channel there is also a presentation "Could Christ Return in 2020?" I only skimmed through it, but it didn't seem any more useful.
On your expectations, though, I'm assuming that is sarcasm? I've never observed Christadelphians changing their way of life so radically, though the return of Christ has been considered near since before I was born.
Jon,
DeleteI suspect that Jim Cowie is not perhaps familiar with UK weather, and as you have correctly pointed out, there was never any evidence that the vote disruption was significant. On that day I was working further north, near Norwich, and there was severe local flooding around 17:00. This was in an area that vote over 70% to leave, so it would be unclear why God's angelic storm guiders would have caused such disruption in an area that was so clearly voting the way that God wanted them to. To most intelligent people, there is nothing to this tale other than coincidence.
As I've stated before, the actual result for the Christadelphians of this level of "support" for brexit, is likely to take its toll over the next few years.Already struggling for membership, they have now excluded 48% of the UK population, and will have made those within the group with less fanatical ideas, wonder a little more if the religion is actually right for them, and if they are comfortable promoting it's stance. Crucially, as this poll shows:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/520954/brexit-votes-by-age/
They have actually managed to alienate more like 73% of their target for membership. For a tiny group that manages to recruit fewer than 20 new members from outside of existing family members,this could very quickly prove devastating. There is also a feeling here that associates brexit with old people, and far-right groups.
The Tarshish nonsense is just that, but has occupied their thoughts for far too long.
There is an element of sarcasm in my expectations, but not entirely. I travel the country quite a bit, and I have noticed that the JW's have greatly increased their efforts in recent months, and have been spending many hours out in the cold and wet, showing far more dedication to the cause than Christadelphians ever do. There are a number of young people in what used to be my Christadelphian family (as well as my own kids who have not been brought up as Christadelphians).It will be interesting to see if these people accept what they are being taught by their Christadelphian families, because it hardly seems sensible to go through all the higher education if they genuinely believe that the Kingdom is so close at hand. My experience (limited) tells me that many, if not most, Christadelphians live double lives, saying one thing for the meeting, but doing and living something entirely different in the outside world, whilst fabricating all sorts of reasons for behaving that way, and not always realising that nobody on the outside is fooled for a moment.
If you read the comments on those videos, you will notice that they are never, ever, critisised by Christadelphians. That is why I believe that the vast bulk of them are accepting what is said as truth, along with the fact that the channels promoters have the backing af dozens of UK Ecclesias, and non of the rest show any dissent.
What with fires, floods, volcano eruptions, now we have the Coronavirus sufferers driven away to isolation in FOUR HORSEMAN coaches. (Reading UK based company)
ReplyDeleteDriving past a church here a couple of times today, I saw their noticeboard.
DeleteOn one side: "There's a disease worse than coronavirus. It's called sin, and Jesus is the cure".
On the other side something like: "2020 vision: See how Jesus can improve your life".
Good Omens did the bikies of the apocalypse so much better...
Mancott, many thanks for linking what has to be the most hilarious twaddle of the year thus far! I would think this should lift Matt Davies blood pressure to at least 160/120 and be sure of at least an hour on the "bibletruthandprophecy" channel.
DeleteEbola was a "warning", The murder of UK nationals in tunisia was a sign, so yes, Corona (NOT the delivery to home pop supplier to the midlands, remember them?) will be another.
"Jesus is the cure" Could well be. Chhristadelphianism surely is not.
DeleteIf Jesus is the cure I don't know what the disease is.
DeleteWell according to the Christadelphian view, God invented both viruses and sin. I don't know how Christianity works any more. Something about not letting your left brain know what your right brain is thinking...
DeleteThom, It doesn't work. It's a mental health condition. Also thanks for your latest posts over on your blog. I can identify with most of what you have written.
DeleteShort memory boys. What about the Spanish flu.. have a Dr google up on that one.
ReplyDeleteHow many did it kill?? Shocking !
As it happens, I was talking with colleagues about the Spanish flu yesterday. Societally it was particularly devastating coming at the end of WW1 and with younger adults more affected.
DeleteThe current coronavirus, while already serious, is being treated seriously because of its pandemic potential. And almost certainly the Spanish flu wouldn't have affected so many if we had had the treatments and procedures now available a hundred years ago - treating coronavirus more seriously is our way of trying to make the final result less serious.
I'm sure that Corona, Ebola, Spanish Flu and all the rest are just accepted by Christadelphians as "wonders" of God's creation. The same way that Butterflies, Koalas, and other cute things are.
DeleteJoseph, Monty Python certainly realised that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEKDYIYMgBc
DeleteI imagine many Christadelphians will take it as the will of God, at least, perhaps something preparing for the return of Jesus or showing how unhappy God is with the world and the people he supposedly created.
Was trying to say that there has been worse diseases over the years than this one..at this point anyway.
ReplyDeletePaul, yes there have. It is also worth considering that this latest disease appears to have a fatality rate of about 2%, and as a generalization, many of those seem to be compromised by pre-existing conditions/age/circumstance.
DeleteIf you take a look at "bibleinthenews.com", 15th Feb 2020 (repeated by UK leadership of Christadelphians), you will see the Christadelphian finger very clearly claiming that the problem has been caused by food practices and sanitation in the areas most affected, and that it could have been avoided by following selectively following the law of Moses. It then goes on to attempt to whip up panic by claiming that men's hearts are failing them for fear. (looks like nothing of the sort to me, just that people are concerned and governments are taking reasonable precautions).
Similar claims have been made before, over Ebola, and should be treated with similar skepticism. Also note that the article does not have a single word of sympathy or concern for those affect. Just the normal hardline religious fire fanning.(Some of it seems to have been lifted from the Jerusalem Post)
Linking in to something that Thom has said here, a Christadelphian who I am vaguely familiar with recently self published a book about her personal life living with cystic fibrosis, I've only skipped through it, but it seems to be more an account of how modern man made medicine has enabled her to live a much longer life than my friend, Kay, who died aged 11 in 1974 ever could.
I am afraid that no amount of looking into the law of Moses will help with her condition, but a modern health service, numerous state provided drugs and treatments, and dedicated researchers and doctors, has enabled her to become a mother, and lead a full life. To stop all that, and rely on Mosaic laws would be a death sentence within weeks. But for bizarre religious reasons Christadelphians are unable to see that, and continue to write this twaddle thinking that they have the answers.
Latest reports from Fox claim could be a Global pandemic.
ReplyDeleteThey do, as do other media outlets. Is this out of genuine concern, or readership numbers do you think?
DeleteQuestion.. would keeping those dietary laws have prevented this?? You will be more qualified than me to answer.
ReplyDeletePaul, in short, the answer to that is "no", however as I'm about to travel, this will be a quick reply.
DeleteWhat Christadelphians have produced here, is what they frequently do. It is a combination of "cherry picking" the Jewish laws, choosing those that look relevant (to them at least), and the "but it fits!" argument that they also love so much. It's also been sauced with a good sprinkle of what looks like racism and/or white western supremacist thoughts. They can do this because they know that they cannot lose members in China, (as they have none), and of course most Christadelphians will lap this up. Note that they have not referenced their sources either.
It is also worth remembering that the founders of Christadelphianism believed in, and ardently practiced Phrenology- the idea that a persons character can be determined from the bumps on their skull, none of them were at the forefront of public health improvement.
Whatever health benefits those dietary laws were supposed to offer, it is noteworthy that Jesus defended his disciples when they were accused of not washing their hands and effectively recommended that others do the same (Matt 15). So much for hygiene.
DeleteI've heard people make the argument before about Jewish dietary laws, but really all they mean is the basic fact of washing hands. But the actual laws are arbitrary, and if there was any correlation with health benefits it seems to have been by accident. The laws have nothing to do with germ theory, and in fact they include unnecessary things like washing hands after eating (why?) and also no mention of washing hands after using the toilet(!). See Deut 23:12-13. No mention of washing hands despite giving instructions on number twos.
The Old Testament, especially the first 5 books, was mostly written around the middle of the first millennium BCE (despite what CDs claim). The Egyptians and Greeks washed regularly since before this time, and the Romans also did in their time. For most of the late Bronze age, Egypt ruled the area of Canaan and had a huge influence in that region. Let's not pretend that some village people in the Judaean hills were the first to invent hygiene. They weren't. That's not to say their laws did nothing. Any washing of germs off their hands probably did a world of good. But people figured this out in various ways in most cultures, without realising the details or why it worked.
It wasn't until the discovery of germ theory that real progress was made in this area though, and it seems pretty weak to argue for some vague notion of God inspiring random ritual washing in the Bible, omitting other crucial details, but then leaving it up to scientists in modern times to actually understand what it was about. Come on now.
To take the law of Moses for cleanliness rules requires not just cherry-picking one section of the law of Moses, but also choosing which of the cleanliness laws to uphold (based on our modern knowledge of what is actually effective). For example, I doubt anyone today would consider using the ashes of a blemish-free red heifer with water of purification.
DeleteA tad more serious now than you are suggesting..
ReplyDeletePaul,
DeleteThere haven't been any posts here by ex-christadelphians that have suggested that this outbreak is anything but serious.
The "bibleinthenews" article that I quoted was simply to demonstrate the childish and vindictive attitude that is so often visible in the Christadelphian community.
I prefer to look a real, scientific reports rather than listen to the deranged ideas of people who look to an old book for all forms of guidance, and then attempt to fit world events to that perceived agenda.
The risk to general healthy persons below 60, remains low (but this in no way reduces the concerns we have for those of our families in more vulnerable categories)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/13/how-many-will-die-of-coronavirus-in-the-uk-a-closer-look-at-the-numbers
In the UK, there are around 6000 Christadelphians, of which around 80% are over the age of 60, which places them in the higher risk groups, regardless of underlying health conditions. They meet, and sit in close proximity at least three times a week, for well over an hour at a time, and share, mouth-to-mouth plates, bread, and drinking cups. They bring young children into the meetings in close proximity to themselves. The also hold lengthy Bible Schools, being closely together for days, and nights, on end.
If ever there were a high risk group, it is them, since they will almost certainly ignore the "wisdom of man" on this one, as they do on other matters.
What say you?
The debate about whether to cancel church gatherings is going on around the world in many, many denominations. I've seen numerous articles with different points of view about whether it's acceptable to do it if it's ordered by the state, or if it's to save lives, or whatever.
DeleteA friend of mine said that they were really worried about their mother, who was still planning to attend daily mass and take communion in spite of all warnings against it. Though some dioceses are cancelling mass altogether and I think theirs might as well, which does take it out of individuals' hands.
Funny, when you make people feel like meeting every Sunday is an important spiritual requirement, it's harder then to get them to stop doing it even if it's for good reason... One of my favourite comments about it was this:
Somehow I think Jesus would tell them to cancel church already. After all, it was Jesus who said “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.” (Source)
I haven't heard for sure, but I expect that Christadelphians here in Australia will continue to meet as normal unless they get forced to do something else. I hear that the Christadelphian aged people home here in Melbourne have cancelled at least some visits, which is probably a good thing. The government has recommended against gatherings over 500 people, which might affect major camps, but few if any ecclesias here would have those numbers and so they will probably ignore it. Some individual members more at risk are going into isolation, though.
Hard to see where it will go next. I was seeing the dire projections a week or two ago, and they made sense but I'm still sorry to see them confirmed worldwide.
At time of writing, Churches in the UK, along with the Muslim council, have advised that gatherings/services/Friday prayers, etc are not a good idea, for the benefit of their communities.
Deletemy understanding is that Christadelphians will continue to meet as normal, and, standing back, you can see that this is to be expected.
Firstly, they would never wish to be taking external advice, or indeed doing the same as other churches/faith. A group that thinks it has the only true religion simply could not do that.
Secondly, until an emergency law is passed, they have no need to take government advice.
Thirdly, there is almost no possibility that anybody from outside the cult will be in attendance with them, so by meeting, any possibility of harm will be self limited to their own people.
Fourthly, large numbers of deaths amongst the majority elderly Christadelphian membership will not be seen as any sort of disaster, it will just confirm beliefs that we are indeed in the (very) last days.
Numerically, around 400 cult members in the UK are likely to pass as a result of the infection/age/health situation. At the risk of sounding cruel, it is all rather irrelevant to the rest of us. In recent days (weeks), their leadership have published some of the most vile devisive comments and material (written and video), trawled from cult members worldwide. They have re-emphasised their callous dismissal humanity, such as it exists in other races and cultures, and made clear their disdain for just about everybody's efforts to deal with the crisis.
I do hope that when they have made themselves sick, that they do not burden themselves on the health services just to extend their lives by a few months until the return of Christ that they are predicting.
The daughter of one of the leading lights of UK Christadelphia posted a couple of days ago, that they expect to be "taken" during the lockdowns, and that nobody would notice (this is an echo of similar nonsense by Jonathan Bowen about 5 years ago). This is correct. Nobody would notice, and nobody would care either. Why? Because there attitude to everybody else has saddened and sickened us deeply, and if they wish to go....they know where the door is.
Update: As of today it seems that at least some UK ecclesias have chosen to cancel all meetings for the time being:
Delete"CORONAVIRUS (COVID – 19) UPDATE
Based on the latest government advice we have reluctantly decided to cancel all services and other activities at our hall until further notice. Minimising the risk to our members, families, friends and neighbours of catching the virus is our priority, so we hope you will understand why we have taken this decision.
We are exploring different ways of keeping in touch and to support each other during these unprecedented times, including holding some of our services on-line, so check the website for updates.
We hope and pray that God will protect you and keep you all safe and well until we can meet again"
This statement raises all sorts of questions in the skeptic's mind. Just why is it that on this one selected occasion, they have chosen to take the government's advice? (it is not law, just advice).Why are they not giving advice from within? They are after all the only people in the entire world that understand God's plan and timetable of events. Nobody else has a clue, so why turn to the government for advice? Surely they should be looking to the Bible for advice.
Also, If they believe that God can protect them, and keep them safe and well, outside, with all the unbelieving disease carrying riff-raff, surely he could look after them for the few hours a week inside the meeting room? Can his power not penetrate the walls of the meeting room?
Just a lot of scared people whose bluff has been called.
I've heard that members of my own family will be attending the meeting as normal this coming Sunday, in defiance of all the official advice to avoid social contact. As this particular ecclesia has an average age of around 75 and wine and bread is shared from the same plate and cup, I fear that their numbers will soon be 'falling away' caused by their own stupidity.
DeleteSurely this starkly illustrates the 'us and the world' attitude that they hold? I know they expect to be immortal in the near future, but I think some will discover that they aren't just yet!
Mark, you are absolutely correct.
DeleteThe quote I made is from west Birmingham Christadelphians (UK), this is a wealthy ecclesia, (at meeting times the car park looks like the import centre for expensive new German cars).
The language used is telling, you will note that number one on their list of concerns is themselves. Their priority is given as themselves (not God's will as you might expect).Surprisingly, they need to find ways of keeping in touch with each other, and yet the phones are working, buses running, and nobody is banned from going out. It is an insight into their social structure.
Despite all of their protestations, it is an admission that Bible reading and God is not enough to protect them.
Christadelphians repeatedly accuse wider society of being men whose "hearts are failing them from fear". In wider society, what we are actually seeing is a coming together of people, young people taking supermarket jobs to speed up food distribution, and no signs at all of the sort of panic that would justify such words.
Christadelphians have also stated that "...supermarket shelves decimated as the world’s wealthy stock up". Go out to the shops, and what you will see is regular people, trying their best to look after their families when they know they might see a fall in their income, and being stuck in at home, and a government and society doing it's best to regulate supply and demand.
You can rest assured that the "them and us" isolationist attitude, and the reliance on prayer, will evaporate the very instant that one of these vile people fall sick. At that point they will expect those in that world outside to bend over backwards to treat them, so that when this is all over, they can once again crawl out of their hovels and start throwing stones again.
Even normally cocky suffolk Christadelphians have now had their hearts fail them with fear, and gone with the advice:
"After careful thought, Bury St Edmunds Christadelphians have suspended all public Bible talks for the duration of the Corona Virus outbreak"
Other long term sick Christadelphians have gone into isolation to hide from this particular wonder of God's creation. They all want the kingdom as soon as possible, but not just now....
The message is clear, God and his angels were on hand to swing the Brexit vote, but is mysteriously absent when Christadelphians need protecting from his creation. The trouble for them is that it won't just be cynical old people like me who notice, their own "young people" might just begin to wonder too.
Yeah was getting at your comment on readership numbers.
ReplyDeleteI only ever went to a few meetings in Chelmsford but I have a lot of respect for the Christadelphians. They always point to scripture as their main reference point. Whether it's Coronavirus or Brexit it's all happening right under our noses right now, so perhaps we should be doing a little more listening and end up being better informed as to what's really going on in the world. Don't get caught up with the main-stream media which puts out Fake News about almost everything and start discerning the truth of how we are all being manipulated to accept the 0ne World Government of the New World 0rder and the Globalist Agenda to Control us all! Wake Up 0h Sleeper! Yours Truly, Mark Essex.
ReplyDeleteI'm confused, where do the Illuminati fit into all of this? is covid-19 related to chemtrails?
DeleteShould we unplug our toasters just in case they are secretly plotting to reveal our darkest secrets to the lizard people?
Seriously though, the one thing I find more terrifying than all of these conspiracy theories is that there are people who actually believe them, and some of them vote.
Wait, isn't the One World Government and New World Order exactly what the Christadelphians have been preaching about and looking forward to? Whose side are you on?
So, Mark Essex, you don't like the main-stream media because you know (or think you know) its biases. OK. And yet you seem to trust books written thousands of years ago by unknown authors in (I assume) a different language from the language you speak. How can you possibly know their biases?
ReplyDeleteI would agree that much of what is out there in the public realm is "Fake News," meant to promote political agendas. But I would also posit that much of what comes out of Christadelphianism is "prophecy" that is worked and reworked to fit their own particular religious agenda. Doesn't matter if the peg is square and the hole is round, pound it in anyway, with a little lubricant if necessary. Make it fit, so you can sell your prophecy theories to the saps.
ReplyDeleteBy way of a rather extreme illustration, in the tiny CD band that emigrated to Israel (a group separate from the small CD church presently operating near Tel Aviv), it was initially thought that Moshe Dayan, the former Defense Minister of Israel, was Jesus living incognito and imminently about to reveal himself. (Yeah, I know.) When dear Moshe died, they then decided that Christ must be concealing himself as Abba Eban, another charismatic tribal luminary. Then Abba kicked. Then it was Yitzhak Sharon, or some other authoritarian dufus. At one time, they even postulated that the Messiah was concealed in the form of the hideous iron-fisted bridge troll called Menachem Begin. Anyone who shuffled onto the political stage and made a splash was theorized to be "the One." They'd rework scripture to create "proof" of their newest belief. I was in this small group in Israel -- unfortunately -- and was always glad that Pauline Hanson never made a tour of the Middle East.
To reiterate, this is an extreme example. But it stemmed from -- and was not so very far removed from -- the delusions of the CD mainstream, if such a thing can be said to exist. Foreign Christadelphians visiting the group in Israel made this evident, when they would sit and listen politely to explanations by this group as to why one person or another must be Jesus, waiting to reveal himself and establish his dominion over the world. When delusions stem from religious beliefs that are themselves delusions in the first place, there's not a lot of room in which to maneuver to achieve the truth of a situation.
The visitors would thus sit quietly and politely, and insert a few discreetly opposing thoughts into the conversations, and then get on their airplanes and return to the middle class comforts of CD land in the Western countries from whence they'd come. And for those of us stranded in Israel in that tiny CD cult splinter group, the result was a pure form of Hell that the visitors' failure to intervene had legitimized.
One more thought about "making progress and leaving Christadelphianism in the dust behind you."
ReplyDeleteI would agree we must each try, to one extent or another, to "move along." Sites like this one are nonetheless important because they show defectors the road to travel in their journey out of the sect. At some point, most people go on to live productive and fulfilling lives -- or they at least aspire to those things. The people maintaining sites like this one are still to be commended for being faithful to Christadelphianism's victims, showing the rest of us the way toward the light and the real "Truth," the one in which Christadelphianism is relegated into what it actually is -- nonsense.
I much prefer the Christadelphians for all or any shortcomings they may have and the Bible to the thread of opinion expressed here. Individuals defining themselves by being ex or placing their opinions in a doubting framework are as the moon mere reflections of the source.
ReplyDeleteBreadon, Can you confirm for us then that you consider that the Christadelphians have correctly interpreted the Bible, specifically with regard to Brexit? Also why do you think that so many people have failed to make the connection between the prophecies and Brexit? Why do you think the creator of the universe has used the UK entry and exit as a pre-cursor to the return of Christ?
DeleteHow would you define someone who one belonged to something but now doesn't? I prefer to use the term "former" to "ex".
To use another lunar analogy, I consider Christadelphians to be like dogs baying at the moon-people wasting time and effort trying to get something that they want, but is unobtainable. And causing plenty of suffering in doing so.
In addition to Joseph's points, the reason I use the label here is that it shows that I am critiquing something that I have experience with. However, I left Christadelphia because I learned more about the Bible, and I try to pass on what I've learned. The framework I now try to work with is the framework of reality - yes, that can lead to doubting the Bible, but to me the important thing is to ask why we believe what we believe what we believe, not automatically give the benefit of the doubt to the particular sacred text we grew up with.
DeleteFinally, what I think commenters frequently miss is that this label and this role is just one part of my life. I am a former Christadelphian, and that certainly influences me, but does not define me. It is not a label I use while at work, or out hiking, or in so many other parts of my life. It just happens to be relevant to this site and for these writings.
I would also like to re-iterate Jon's last point. I use the label inasmuch as it represents the world I grew up in and it's part of my history that cannot be changed (only reinterpreted and learned from).
DeleteHowever it certainly does not define who I am today, and I would say my religious past is actually one of the least interesting things about me and about my life these days.
Meanwhile Breadon, what brings you to this corner of the internet? Can we help you find what you're looking for?
Breadon has simply arrived to express his disapproval. For much or most of humanity, the comfort of living in delusion is a preferable cowardice compared to existing in harsh realities. Living in those harsh realities is ultimately more honest and worthwhile and rewarding, but those are rewards that gerbils like Breadon will end up missing. Back, now, Breadon, into the fantasy world of your sacred texts !!!!
ReplyDeleteBible in the News continues to quote only right wing Brexiteers. Latest post from them celebrates a trade deal with Canada, neglecting to point out that it is in fact just the same terms we (the UK) enjoy because of the Canada / EU deal.
ReplyDeleteBITN think that the UK will not have a close relationship with EU. We will soon find out. Polly Toynbee has a piece in the Guardian today:
Ignore the blustering brinkmanship: there will be a deal between Britain and the EU. This week, next week or in the final second before the clock strikes 12, this Brexit-crazed government will sign on the line.It needs no crystal ball to foresee a deal. Though this government is disgraceful and dishonest, it is not certifiably insane. It will not kill off the car industry, manufacturing, farming, finance and fishing. It will not cut off security and police relations with Europe. Nor will it want a hard border in Ireland, breaking the Good Friday agreement. And nor will it freeze friendship with the new US president, nor leave relations with our nearest neighbours and traders irreparably rancorous.
Hassan, I've heard from very early on from both sides "The UK is one of Europe's biggest trading partners, so they'll make a deal on our terms" and "Europe is the UK's biggest trading partner, so the UK will be forced to make a deal". I tended to think the second one more likely, as in the piece you reference, but if it does turn out to be no deal it wouldn't be the first time in history where two parties have made a decision worse for both of them because neither was quite able to back down.
DeleteQuite apart from the traditional dislike of Europe promoted by the Christadelphians, and their love of all things American,I commented a few years ago that even ignoring their "religion", their demographic (80%+ over 60, male dominated,relatively wealthy middle class) would always place them on the Brexit side of the fence. It's worth remembering too that the large majority of them live on lucrative pension schemes, and due to the "imminent" return of Christ, care very little about the future, good or bad. To an outsider of the religion, they look a very callous lot indeed, but of course this is normalised within the cult itself.
DeleteBecause of this cult indoctrination, it is difficult to regard anything that these people say with seriousness, and I do not.
My money is on the side of a "no deal", as I sit here in foggy, wet, 3 degrees C, lockdown & Tiered "Tarshish".
Trade is one thing, UK currently buys about 30% of its food and a significant amount of energy (cables under the channel) from EU, of course it will still do that on Jan 1st, the deal is just about how much tariff is applied. More important as far as this CD view of Brexit goes is what sort of deal is done on Security co-op etc.
DeleteWhat seems to have been forgot by the CDs is that as recently as Gulf War 2 - US and UK were the strongest advocates and France was strongly against, so with or without Brexit the UK has independent foreign policy.
Of course the CD view is nonsense - there is no way that Tarshish can be mapped to any state now, just because the celts who lived in what is now Cornwall (and what is now Brittany) sold their tin to traders. They are very picky in who the young lions are too - never a mention of Ireland which was under the control of the British crown for much longer than US for example. But Ireland is a) catholic(ish) and b) very keen to stay in EU.
Its also complete rubbish to characterise EU as Catholic and UK as Protestant. UK is way more catholic than say Netherlands or Germany. But there is one thing that CDs hate more than EU and that is the Roman Catholic church. Which somehow CDs have convinced themselves is controlling the EU. Its bonkers.
But - due to the ongoing pandemic and the rule of three households this Christmas I am very unlikely to meet my CD relatives, so I wont get sucked into a debate on it.
So since the first occurrence of the word brexit on Jan 17th 2016, it has appeared in 55 of the Bible in the News articles. But now, when it is finally done, there is no mention of it. It seems to boil down to the UK has left the EU customs union. I guess therefore that even they can see that the UK treaty with EU makes the EU by far the closest partner it has...
DeleteI haven't kept track of how Christadelphians are interpreting Brexit - I'm sure a year or two ago some were hoping for No Deal, and maybe they are still hoping that, given enough years, regulatory divergence and trade deals and so on separate Britain more from the EU. Who knows?
DeleteTo me it's enough to say that the Bible doesn't predict Brexit, and that Christadelphians haven't been very good at predicting beyond "Hey, Brexit is going to happen" (the details matter).
Me neither, but then even though Brexit was/is important here, a lot of us have had other things to concern ourselves with, and those other things are far more immediately exciting for Christadelphians, economic problems in the here and now have them salivating far more than Brexit, because whichever side of the Brexit divide people where, it is over now, and a deal done, and that side of life, essentially trade goes on as normal, following the basic rules of supply and demand.
DeleteAndrew Bramhill, of the Christadelphian, in a quote from their website sees the problems of the latest UK restrictions as an "continuing inconvenience", which is preventing him from peddling the cult's wares, and seems confident that with enough prayers, Jesus will be back this year to give them all a leadership position in the kingdom.
It is harder to gauge what is the cult's current fad with Brexit in the current circumstances. Despite being allowed to meet in their rooms since July, the vast majority of ecclesias have chosen not to (mainstream churches seem to have managed this far better, with some excellent mixed physical attendance/ PUBLIC streamed services available). At the last count, only 10 UK ecclesias are streaming services, and all are "closed", I.E. Not publicly accessible, which means that there has been no public outreach of even the weakest type for 9 months now. This follows the trend that I have noticed over the last 5 years or so, that very few actual talks from "normal" ecclesias are publicly available now, whereas previously it was fairly common. I can see why though, it did invite unwelcome attention and criticism. As I've commented before, access to Bible School material is now not freely available either, probably because it either would not stand up to criticism, or in some cases could be recorded as hate crime.
With regard to the Christadelphians Covid beliefs, apart from that published on BITN and "The Christadlphian" (which is not of course public), they are having to be careful so as not to violate the various platforms policies with regard to misinformation, to prevent being shut down.
Hassan, Last weeks BITN was totally cranky, even by their standards. Their authors seem to be losing the plot a bit. They are disappointed that A: a deal was reached. B: The sky has not fallen in and nobody is starving. They will be waiting to see what changes and then searching their Bibles to see where it was predicted. They have plenty of time to do that now they are under a "stay home" order for the next 3 months.
Yes totally cranky. This week "Brexit is Complete, a tremendous confirmation of prophetic understanding" even though not 6 months ago they said if Britain left with a deal then future events would be needed blah blah. Anyway 2021 will be year when businesses in the UK and EU adapt to Brexit, Covid will come under some control at least and a reasonable person will be President of USA, so after a few months of disruption, 2021 may shape up to a good year.
DeleteBITN has addressed my question posed above about why isn't Ireland a young lion. Totally appalling piece of re-writing history. Last weeks was even more cranky - The Bible teaches that mankind is naturally evil and sinful...The governments of this world are a collection of individuals who are of the flesh. Therefore the governments of this world are corrupt and the politics of this world are corrupt. A true follower of Christ will not be involved in politics... Well you could argue that about absolutely anything, even Christadelphian Churches themselves for that matter.
DeleteHassan, It appears that this week's BITN was written by a Canadian, with access to only far left publication/online content, and little "boots on the ground" idea of the complex situation. This is betrayed by the strange idea that the British army "backed" the north, which to a native UK residence is a very strange way to describe the situation. He doesn't seem to have a grip on just how many of us in the UK have mixed Irish ancestry (myself included, I have enough to claim an Irish passport should I so desire).
DeleteThe writers of BITN are doing themselves no favours, however it would be nice if Jon were to consider a twice monthly article header for us to discuss/comment on BITN for that period, with the (relatively) low number of articles (not a complaint-I know how much work it can be!), It is difficult to keep discussion on thread.
Hi Joseph, Sorry it took longer to get to than expected. I've just created a discussion post. I'm happy to think about creating them more frequently, but will see how many comments the first post gets and how easy it is to keep track of.
DeletePersonally, I'd prefer not to be involved in the discussion. I wrote a lot about Israel in my first couple of years out, then this post on Brexit, and by the end of it I just think "It's so ridiculous it's not worth my time any more". It's just such a different world, and a world I was somewhat skeptical of even while a Christadelphian. From outside it just looks delusions of self-importance and having access to hidden knowledge that no-one else has. And I understand the allure of that, but it doesn't stand up to even the most basic scrutiny and I'm over it. Enjoy the discussion, though :)
There is a translation for "I am bothered by your website's negativism."
ReplyDeleteThe translation is: "I don't like your criticism of the superstitions in which I place stock."
Yes, but are you using the "correct" translation? :)
DeleteI am a Christadelphian. Are you ex- Christadelphians ATHEISTS.
ReplyDeleteWhy the shouty all-caps?
DeleteAtheists are just people who aren't convinced that any gods exist.
Theist = belief in God
a-Theist = without belief in God
Gnostic = knowledge that god(s) exists
a-Gnostic = without knowledge that god(s) exist
Thus it's possible to be both atheist and agnostic at the same time. In fact the vast majority of atheists are agnostic. No one actually knows whether any gods exist or not.
While we may be open to the possibility of a god existing, we consider the likelihood of your particular god existing much like you consider the likelihood of Allah, Vishnu, or Zeus existing. Everyone is convinced by different things. I personally just find the evidence for particular gods pretty uncompelling and could just as easily point to a dozen other things. I'm much more willing to just be honest and say I don't know the answers to such things. In most cases I simply have no way to know. And that's ok.
But do I think the tribal war deity of ancient Canaanite settlers is up in the sky watching over everything I do? No, I don't. Just like we both don't think a being called Odin actually slew any ice giants. Just like I don't think unicorns exist. People in those days were superstitious. We have much better information now.
But so what? What matters is who we are as people, and how we treat others. We're not defined by a 1-dimensional label.
Not everyone on this blog is an atheist. Many ex-Christadelphians find peace with other religious communities. Some of us find that those kinds of communities are just not for us.
What about you? Would you say you are more motivated by the doctrines or the community/friends around you? Let's say all your friends decided to leave or even just form their own community with less focus on doctrine. Would you prefer to stay with them? Or would you prefer to let your friends go in order to stay firm with your doctrinal views?
Thom Jonas, you ventilate a thought here which I have had myself for some time -- which is, if there wasn`t the social side to Christadelphian meetings, would there be many Cd`s attending their meetings regularly? The loud chat and laughter before and after meetings was always a feature in my days as a Cd, and was nothing to do with doctrine or Cd matters. It often continued up until the president rose to start the meeting, and the volume increased again after the final prayer. I have been told by a Cd friend that this sort of chat/banter has come in for recent criticism by Cd elders at my friend`s ecclesia. So, is the chat/banter just a sign of their being so pleased to be part of a group who think they have The Truth, or the chance for a social gathering to swap gossip and family news?
DeleteI've spoken with a Christadelphian just reacently actually and he agreed that many are just there due to having been raised in it, and having friends in the religion. It's social before doctrine. I'd say in a majority of cases that's true actually. That doesn't mean they don't "believe" - no doubt they do. But they might not be nearly so dogmatic on a whole range of issues compared to the more hard-line members.
DeleteI don't really fault anyone for wanting to keep their social networks (the original kind, the offline ones) intact and staying in the religion for those benefits. If they can do it, and it works for them, then by all means. The problem is when people are there against their will, or when they haven't been offered the life experience or opportunities to even know what they've given up, or to make an actual informed decision about their life.
Well, I certainly am. But to be clear, I wasn't when I left the Christadelphians, that took a few more years. With hindsight, It dawned on me that when people behaved as badly, and in the way that they did, that they had exposed themselves for what they are- complete and utter fakes. Their actions at the time ensured that several people left, never to return, and others would never fall sufficiently under their influence to accept their twaddle. Such actions make you look more closely at what you believe, or thought you believed.
ReplyDeleteI'm now a "cultural Christian" if you like. I enjoy the Christmas Carol service, and even the Easter services, and sometimes attend (anonymously) online services at the Church my brother occasionally preaches at, but it is a far cry from the bilge I sat through as a Christadelphian, in many ways it's just me feeling comfortable with the culture that I grew up with, and listening to people who put more emphasis on humanity in the here and now rather than ranting about prophecy, judgement and all that shite
I trust that answers your question.
I can respect this. There is a certain familiarity with some of the cultural elements that can feel really good in terms of connecting you with others and just being part of a greater movement that just wants to help people and make the world a little better. Meanwhile I think this element is largely missing from many Christadelphian communities.
DeleteA week on I don't know we should expect to hear more from Joshua David. I'd agree with Thom: I don't have any reason to believe in any god, and thus atheist is one label I choose to adopt (it's certainly not the only one).
ReplyDeleteHowever, if by "ATHEIST" you mean the kind of unbeliever I was taught to fear as a Christadelphian - someone who without God had no moral foundation and could commit atrocities at the drop of a hat - then no, I'm not that kind of atheist, and nor are the many ex-Christians I've come to know after leaving religion. In fact, my experience is that we can have a better moral sense when we don't have to justify the atrocities of an all-powerful God (Divine Command Theory, for example), and can focus on actual harm to individuals rather than which "sins" supposedly upset a God we have no reason to believe in.
Joseph, I went to the Christmas services of my former ecclesia for a few years after quitting - I like some of the carols, and it gave an opportunity to catch up with people I hadn't seen for a while. Then they seemed to stop running them, and I'm not sure why.
Wow - you had Christmas services! How things change - probably over space as well as time. My parents were conflicted - we celebrated Christmas at home just like everyone else, thankfully, but if Christmas Day was a Sunday ? Do we go to the meeting - and risk outsiders thinking we celebrate Christmas, or do we stay at home and … celebrate Christmas. Here in the UK we still have a group that go to a youth hostel to get away from it and study dry bones : http://northernwinterstudy.com/info/ . Their rules are great - I think the one that says 'Please do not bring anything that is likely to be annoying to anyone else' is code for 'nothing Christmassy' but I don't actually know.
ReplyDeleteHassan, somewhere on this site you will find a poem about a sister who made her objections very plain about having to attend on Christmas Day. Not one UK ecclesia which I belonged to would have have allowed celebratory carols.
ReplyDeleteHassan, I always belonged to ecclesias that had Christmas services (though not usually on Christmas day). The catch was that they were largely intended to be outreach events, not for us - we might talk about "the true meaning of Christmas", but our personal family dinners were more times for food and family, just like those terrible secular people around us. I also knew of people who were very much anti-Christmas. And once the Christadelphian had a terrible hit piece on Christmas that I wrote (and got published) a letter defending using Christmas for outreach. So yeah, an interesting mix. And it's because it was once a year and an event intended for the general public that I was more comfortable attending the service after I quit.
ReplyDeleteI've also written a couple of articles on Christmas related things:
The true meaning of Christmas
The greatest story and the greatest gift
Mancott's poem is here.
Well, it seems the Christadelphians have been vindicated this week. I say this as a non-Christadelphian who has been following their interpretations of Bible prophecy with interest. As I type, the very same Islamic nations I have read defined by the Christadelphians as coming against Israel in the last days as holding talks and asking for greater measures against Israel.
ReplyDeleteSeeing some of the nastiness on here towards the elderly in this church has further convinced me they are telling the truth, afterall, Jesus did say that his followers would be hated!
Suzi, given how you seem to be impressed by their interpretations, have you been equally impressed by other groups, or just them?
DeleteWith such a special message to preach, I would have thought that they would have recommenced meetings by now, rather than hiding behind covid as an excuse not to.
Have you noticed how Bible In The news has re-published Daily Mail articles regarding the arrest and subsequent release of an independent Methodist street preacher in the UK? What are the chances of a Christadelphian even being seen in the street spreading their gospel, never mind being arrested for it? (answer-nil, they haven't even had a public lecture in over a year, never mind had a go at street preaching, the Jehovah's witnesses have been HAND WRITING letters, and posting them while they can't door knock. While I don't believe their message, at least they are making an effort and will definitely get a cup of tea and a peaceful chat next time they show up in person! 10/10 for effort, 0/10 for christadelphians.)
The Christadelphians- Reduced to publicly quoting the Daily Mail. What a level to stoop to.
Joseph, when I quickly read Suzi's comment before approving I thought it was satire. I may have been wrong.
DeleteIf it is genuine, I have a question for Suzi: How many times do you think those same nations have made the same noises in the last 50 years and Christadelphians have claimed success? What makes this time different?
On a different note, I think I've heard that my grandfather preached at Speakers' Corner at Hyde Park before he moved to Australia. I'm also fairly sure he wasn't the only Christadelphian of that era to do so.
Jon, yes, could well be satire. I'd agree that in the past, Christadelphians did stand up in public to preach (Duncan Heaster in relatively recent times).
DeleteWhat struck me with the BITN item ( I will comment in the correct thread later), Is how it gave the appearance of Christadelphians supporting the Methodist preachers actions, but only from afar, not sufficiently to take inspiration and do likewise. Plus the irony that they would share no doctrines with him. Very crafty, wording too with that final quote, so as to allow the reader to interpret as he pleases, but also allow the writer to deny meaning whatever that reader interpreted. Very standard Christadelphian tactic. Note too, that when "Christadelphian video" publish a talk, unless it is a big "star" speaker, the identity of the speaker is always concealed. Big enough to stand up and talk, but not big enough to be counted.
When my town had flower parades up until a few years ago, all the churches opened their doors to visitors to drink tea, use toilets etc and maybe buy bric a brac etc, Christadelfians kept their doors firmly closed so as not to be see as having anything in common with these other Churches. They always like for others to do the heavy lifting and then themselves to try to profit from it. Despicable.
Suzi mentions "nastiness" being expressed on this site. The physical, psychological, emotional, and sexual abuse I experienced while in CD Land much better fits that bill. It was perpetrated by "elders" who don't acknowledge it and have no intention of ever making amends for it. "Nasty" enough for you?
DeleteAs Mark Twain wrote, "Hatred is seldom found to exist without having great inspiration."
Delete'Mark Twain' also wrote, "It (the Bible) is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies".
Delete"Fables" and "lies" are the operative words in your post.
ReplyDelete"It's all happening under our noses."
ReplyDelete"The prophecies are being revealed as we watch."
"Things will come to a head imminently."
How many decades did I listen to this prattle? Sounds like the last transcripts that came out of Jonestown, Guyana.
Jody, when the UK lockdowns started, March 2020, my former Ecclesia cancelled meetings, and put the following on their website:
Delete"....postponed till further notice" (That's exactly as it was, and remains so to this day (late June, 2021), clearly done by people struggling with modern English, but of course better than 99.99999% of all others to interpret the Bible in all it's forms.
They then posted a web address in the window, which stayed for the next 15 months, which was just to one of the normal crank websites that they promote. Last week a scrawled note appeared next to it, which said:
"Christ is returning soon" (that may not be the exact wording, I was driving at the time). Based on the website comment, perhaps they meant "Christadelphians returning soon", who knows? What we do know is that after 15 months of no meetings, no lectures to prepare, no exortations to do, those two lines of scrawl are the sum total of their outreach efforts.
Appalling as Jonestown was, it happened, and then it was over. It didn't linger on for two centuries inflicting more harm with each passing decade, as Christadelphianism does, driving it's followers to greed, fraud, adultery, alcoholism, and all the rest, whilst sanctimoniously condemning and handwaving off all criticism, or even honest examination.
Yes, Christ will be back "soon", but don't dare ever ask "how soon"?
Prattle? Your words are too kind by far. Sanctimonious, dishonest drivel is nearer the mark.
The greatest horror to me consists of my relatives who simply rework the "prophecies" to accommodate whatever is happening in the world. It smacks of desperation, delusion, and madness. Many die muttering, "I almost made it." I have an elderly and absolutely horrible relative -- horrible in every descriptive manner -- who is 87 and never stops venting about how if she is lucky, she still has a chance to see Jesus return "because it's all going to happen soon." How pitiful, to have one's life culminate in such self-centered grasping at straws. LIVE YOUR LIFE, dammit!
DeleteA correction. I drove past and checked today. The scrawled addition read "Christ is coming!".
DeleteSo I take back what I said, no timescale was implied or promised. I made a wrong and regretful assumption.
As I drove off down the road though, a little voice in my head said "When?"
When? In 1975 a brother reminded me that within 25 years Christ would have returned. It would be before the year 2000. In 1957 A brother was asked, as he was thinking of changing jobs, what was he going to do? He replied that it didn`t matter, as Christ would be returning "at any time now".
DeleteJoseph, on the weekend in a park I saw a tree with a plaque, and since I was curious what it was I stopped and read it. It said it had been planted during the Second Bahai Holy Year (1992 - 1993), and was in honour of the ascension of the prophet-founder of the Baha'i faith, and in glory of his lofty vision of unity & peace for mankind soon to be realised.
DeleteAnd I thought "That's interesting, and reminds me a lot of Christadelphian things". The main difference being a mere century since the ascension rather than 2,000 years. But I'm not sure unity and peace for humanity will be "soon" now any more than it was in the 1990s. And I don't think Jesus coming one day and forcefully imposing it would really lead to the peace and happiness Christadelphians (including former-me) talked about, either.
Mancott, I'm sure there are many stories like that, and I've certainly heard some of them. Another thing I've heard in the same vein is people being discouraged from attending university, sometimes even from finishing high school. Might work out for some, but I'm sure it will hurt the job and financial prospects of many as they get into their twenties and thirties and possibly desire (or are encouraged to) marry and start families.
In retrospect I can see that all my study and career plans were made as if there was to be no return of Jesus in my lifetime, even though in one part of my head I probably did believe that he would return before I completed university. I don't really understand how former-me squared that circle, but am glad it laid the groundwork for me rejecting religion and living life.
Just a further amendment,and i beg forgiveness if this is making me look a little crazy. Last night I had time to kill in town, whilst one of my daughters was attending something. I did my shopping, and then wandered round to the meeting room, to address a nagging doubt as to the EXACT wording of that sign. Nowadays, I only work part time, as a delivery driver, and realised that I had passed by the meeting room in opposite directions previously. Sure enough, on checking, the sign does indeed read "Christ is coming soon!", on my second pass, this was obscured by reflections from the glass, when viewed travelling west to east, but not east to west.
DeleteSo, I retract my apology, and re-instate my question. Just how soon will it be?
Jody, that frustrated me even as a believer. I never belonged to an ecclesia that made a big deal of it*, but I knew people who did, and I checked out of that prophecy manipulation long before I checked out of the religion.
ReplyDeleteI don't know about John Thomas, but I do know Robert Roberts expected to be still alive when Jesus returned. And he has been dead over 100 years...
* OK, we probably still had the general feeling Jesus' return was "soon", but we didn't spend vast amounts of time studying "the Signs of the Times" or anything like that.