Bible in the News is a Christadelphian podcast which aims to "provide a weekly analysis of world politics and events in the light of Bible prophecy". Recently it has frequently come up in discussion here, particularly with relation to a Brexit post.
This is intended as a discussion post for Bible in the News. It can also be used as a discussion post for anything else related to Christadelphian prophecy interpretation or current events.
CDs rework their pathetic prophecy material as events unfold. And Jesus is always scheduled to arrive imminently on the next train.
ReplyDeleteWe get one life. Live it. I got so tired of hearing CDs bleating about how "the signs" pointed to J. H. Christ arriving any minute. I watched generations of them live and die, parroting that deluded garbage back and forth to one another. I recall once contradicting "the facts" of a "brother," and having him bark rabidly into my face. Heaven and hell are here on earth, and we create and experience them here. Know your joy now; it is all you are going to get. And whatever it may or may not be, it is worth having.
A final note: notice how the disciples of Christ were told he would return soon. Each generation since has waited for the clouds to part. Two thousand years later, we're still waiting on that train. Don't waste one moment on such drivel. I have an acquaintance who says he is still a CD only because he is a "cultural Christadelphian" and a "cultural Christian." As for the actual tenets, he picks and chooses as he likes. Could anything be more pathetic?
In hindsight, I have never understood why so many people have deferred living their lives in order to wait for the unfolding of nonsensical prophecies written by primitives and stored in dusty caverns. The Chosenites were repeatedly under assault in Israel and/or were dispelled from their sacred soil. They wrote about the restoration of their homeland after their anticipated releases from Babylonian or Roman domination. Nothing more, nothing less. No one is coming to redeem us. We redeem our own lives, if they are to be redeemed at all. Out, out, all you spinsters decaying in pews. Go out into the world. Stroke the petals on a dogwood tree. Go buy a beer, and get tipsy. Find romance, or pay someone for it. All of those things are worth infinitely more than burying your brain in caveman theism.
ReplyDeleteI've just had a read of the latest BITN bulletin (April 9th) and it is, as I expected, laughable. The usual breathless reports of Russian aggression toward other nations are followed by a quote from Ezekiel and a contrived massaging of the text to arrive at a hidden prophecy.
ReplyDeleteBeing a CD must be like being stuck in an endless groundhog day-like loop. Every time Russia moves a tank, the same claims are trotted out again and again, and will be indefinitely until the brethren die out or everyone gets fed up of waiting for Jesus's non-return.
I gave up on the prophecy side of the denomination many years before I left Christadelphia for exactly that reason: It seemed perfectly obvious that the same few verses were being used over and over again, and there was no reason to believe that they applied this time than last time.
DeleteThere are two films all CDs should see - especially those leaving CD. 1st film is "The Stepford Wives." This film so reminds me of the institutional mysogony that most CD women seem so happy to accept and support. 2nd film is "Life of Brian" by Monty Python. Critics of Life of Brian often say that it is a mockery of Christ. They are wrong - I have seen the film many times. The film makes fun of people, who stop thinking critically and consequently, do stupid things. When John Clese was beeen interviewed about Life of Brian he said much the same. He pinted out that they had looked at the extremes of political and religious movements act stupidly and stop thinking for themselves.
ReplyDeleteLIfe of Brian explains why CDs are so removed from reality - another film is The Truman Show. A very funny and disturbing film about someone who was in a reality TV show but does not know, he is part of this show. He thinks all the people around him are real people. Sounds a bit like the World of CDs!!
From a Monty Python movie:
Delete"She is a witch. She must be burned at the stake. She made me a deaf-mute."
"But you're talking and hearing."
"I got better."
A delusional CD of my acquaintance has recently been writing articles about biblical prophecies regarding the moon, and how different recent moon cycles indicate the Second Advent is imminent. "Blood Moons," he calls them. The other CDs nod with great seriousness, and allow this foolishness to be presented to audiences.
ReplyDeleteThe older I get, the more childish these fantasies appear to become. And all the more sad, that intelligent adults cleave to them. Religion is indeed the opiate of the masses.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAnother loon turned into a legend. It happens in most religions -- crank religions or otherwise. In the end, he is just another ape contemplating his navel and straining to interpret the universe. And most of the interpretation ends up crapping up its adherents' lives.
ReplyDeleteI am fairly certain I can make all biblical prophecies about the past turn into prophecies about the future if I only use invention I mean interpretation.
ReplyDeleteThis is off topic, but after watching the latest Joe Biden speech I think that he missed his calling. He should have been a Christadelphian arranging brother. Except he's too young for the job.
ReplyDeleteJohn Bedson you are one sad dude
DeleteBit of a Trump man are you John??
ReplyDeleteI think what John is saying is that -- like many arranging brethren -- Biden appears to have been embalmed prematurely. He can't even read the teleprompter competently.
ReplyDeleteIn 2016, if I remember rightly, Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump were the oldest pair of presidential candidates in US history. I wasn't sure that was a good idea. Fast forward to 2020, and Trump was of course four years older, so the Democrats fielded an even older candidate. I didn't and still don't know a lot about Biden, and clearly that was an election winning pitch (it helps when one of your key appeals to voters is "I'm different from the current president"), but I still wasn't sure it was a good idea.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, Paul, being critical of one leader doesn't necessarily mean supporting their opponent. The majority of my friends in the US would be left leaning, and I'd be fairly confident all of them voted for Biden in the last election and preferred him to Trump - but that doesn't stop them being critical of some of his words and actions, and nor should it.
But sometimes Jon it does in fact mean you do support there opponent. I'd like to know what John thinks of Trump since he seems to knock Biden??
ReplyDeletePaul, John does not mention Trump in his comment, let alone indicate support. As I see it, he is simply making an ironic comparison between the image of Biden being presented by the right wing media, and the bumbling incompetence that we have all seen in aged or prematurely aged Christadelphian "leaders".
DeleteTo remind you, for clarity, I do not care who is leading America, or how they got to the position, or indeed anything else about the US. Also, I do not have a TV set so rely on non mainstream media, written material, and spoken word articles to form a view. That said, it is clear that right wing media are presenting Biden at his very worst. What is noticeable though, is that the dominant left wing media sources are saying nothing about his (and his deputy's) performance thus far, which does make me wonder. Either way, it is off topic but should be allowed to stay, and Bible In The News have had plenty to say recently about the Afghan situation which is inextricably linked with both Biden and Trump's decisions, I just haven't had time to fully digest what they are saying to make a meaningful comment.
Joesph, you are not telling me anything that is new. I dont know which media you are talking about. But i will pick on Cnn and Fox. Tv or not you can get plenty of news otherways , its the year 2021. The old saying about the media is they dont let the tuth in the way of a good story. You will know this well too. Cnn is never going knock Biden like Fox does on what ever he does or doesnt do. Aljazeera gives a more un-biased view of it. Espcially with the likes of the Afghan situation that you mention, a Hot Tpoic right now.
ReplyDeleteIt hadn't even occurred to me that the events in Afghanistan might be part of the Signs of the Times. Though it probably helps that the ecclesia I belonged to put less stress on those signs than some.
ReplyDeleteTo me it's pretty simple: Those who wrote the Bible might have known about the existence of Afghanistan (though under different empires and with different borders and name). They didn't know anything about the existence of the US (or, for that matter, of Australia). And they didn't expect God's perfect plan to take another 2,000+ years. So to say that any of the prophecies apply to Afghanistan would be a stretch - but even if they did, why right now? Why not when the Soviet Union was involved with Afghanistan? Or the British Empire? Or some as yet unknown time 500 years from now? In my opinion, nothing about the prophecy enterprise as expounded by "signs of the times" experts makes any sense.
In the late 70s and through the 80s Pearce and Co had an awful lot to say in milestones about the afgan communist coup and subsequent war. It matters not what happens they will interpret anything as a sign that their Master is about to return. This is a 180 degree flip as the Communist regime was fighting rebels who morphed into the Taliban. In any case the situation there now is the same as it was 25 years ago.
ReplyDeleteMy point was not political. I'd watched a nonsensical Biden speech and it took me back to my teenage years listening to nonsensical ramblings by geriatric Arranging Brethren pontificating on who we could marry and how we should view the "Gentiles" in the "evil" world around us and all sorts of other garbage. Why do humans believes total nonsense? Why do Trump supporters think that he won the election and that he will return to power soon? Why do Christadelphians think that their Trump-Jesus won the election over sin and that he will return to power soon? Neither idea makes any sense. Confirmation Bias is so strong in some people that they come to believe the most outlandish things. I've lost my interest in Christadelphians, but I'm still fascinated why people believe things that are so far removed from reality that they can only be described as conspiracy theories or cult like. I don't see the Christadelphians as a cult. They are a failed cult, like Pakistan and Afghanistan are failed States. They were a cult in the days of John Thomas, and Robert Roberts successfully took over as a second cult leader. But CC Walker and subsequent Christadelphian editors were so weak that the cult dissolved into something that was merely a petty religious sect riven with dissent. Now in the dotage of its existence it is away with the fairies, irrelevant, pointless, comical in its senility, riven with corruption in bogus African ecclesias whose members are mostly Pentecostals. It's good that Ex-Christadelphians make a mild effort to salvage Christadelphians from their religion. But I no longer see it as a priority. I felt good when I resigned from the Christadelphians in 1985, but I also felt good when I eventually resigned from the Ex-Christadelphians and finally dragged myself out of the swamp of all things poisoned by that religion that cursed me from my childhood. It does damage your mind. You have a sort of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Even when you become an Ex-Christadelphian you have not fully escaped. It is great that Ex-Christadelphians work to free their brethren from the religion. It is rather like the American airlift out of Kabul Airport rescuing people from the Taliban religious fundamentalists. But there comes a point where you have to walk up the ramp of the final flight to the Free World and leave the mess behind you. Start a new life. Close your ears to the screams coming from the Christadelphian Caliphate and do something else with your life. It is too dangerous to your mental health to continue the rescue effort. Wipe every last vestige and memory of Christadelphianism from your brain and be free at last. That's where I am now, and it is even better than being an Ex-Christadelphian.
ReplyDeleteYet you must have gone along with it in your teenage years John. Or surley you wouldnt have done all the work you did while in it..
DeleteAll you are saying reflects hate and dislike based on your lifestyle nothing to do about the essence of Bible belief and the values it imparts. Your dislike of a certain order of worship and the value you attach that to religion in general and Christianity specifically points out to some form atheism probably laced with LGBTQ agenda or something else that you seem to be advocating for in your strawma
DeleteYou're responding to an 18 month old comments, so I wouldn't expect a response.
DeleteBut when it comes to the "LGBTQ agenda" (which I can see no reference to in the comment you respond to), I don't see a problem with LGBTQ people being able to live ordinary lives. And if, as I suspect from your comment, you do have a problem with that, and think the problem comes from the Bible, then I think that's a problem. The Bible has a values problems: Its values aren't that good.
One cannot be an ex-member of Auschwitz. And Auschwitz and its ilk manifest in many forms. If you can leave it all behind, great. Many of us -- perhaps those most scarred and damaged by our experiences -- drag the millstone behind us, whether we want to or not.
ReplyDeleteOh I very much agree with you. I wish that I had never had a Christadelphian childhood, and I deeply regret the 19 years I spent in the religion. I still get PTSD from it. Support from other victims of Christadelphia is most valuable.
DeleteHere's a question: Has anyone explored the possibility of legal recourse? I was physically, emotionally, psychologically and sexually abused by two members of the group to which I belonged. The abuse was extreme. CD ecclesias operate independently of one another, and have little in the way of assets, but there are foundations and other organizational entities that could be sued. Has anyone done any research on this? To further complicate things, our group, while definitely originating in CDism, eventually drifted away from "mainstream" Christadelphianism, if such a thing can be said to exist. Nonetheless, our group's roots and doctrine were most closely related to CDism than anything else.
ReplyDeleteDorothy, firstly, I'm sorry to hear that. You shouldn't have had to go through any of that.
DeleteAs to legal recourse, I imagine that would depend a lot on where you are. I don't know a lot about it, but here in Australia there has been a government victim redress scheme set up which institutions were supposed to sign up to. And last I heard I'm pretty sure most Christadelphian ecclesias here hadn't signed up to it.
You mention the independence of ecclesias, and I would think that would make it difficult. Christadelphians have tended to stress ecclesial autonomy, and I don't think national organisations or foundations are likely to take responsibility for the actions of individuals or ecclesias not directly involved with that foundation (I don't keep up with Australian ecclesial doings, but I think I heard that was one of the sticking points with signing up to the redress scheme here - ecclesias didn't want to be held financially responsible for the wrongdoings of members of other ecclesias).
Breech of contract. You signed up for the Christadelphians because they offered you forgiveness of your sins and eternal life when Christ returned. You put your money into their collection bags and worked to get other people signed up for their scheme. But you later discovered that the whole thing was fraudulent like Theranos https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58469882 Elizabeth Holmes is the new Dr John Thomas for the 21st Century. That all makes sense to me. Launch your legal case in the US and claim five billion dollars for your disappointment and mental distress as a result of not being able to live for eternity as promised in the original contract. (I'm joking.)
DeleteDorothy, the reality is that all religious groups (The Christadelphians are no exception), are places where abuse of all kinds can flourish, unless the correct checks and balances are in place, The Christadelphians have no such checks and balances in place, and are unlikely to face any sort of investigation. It is even less likely to be looked into/taken seriously in a group (such as the Christadelphians)where there is no organisational structure or even official leadership/authority. Christadelphians are well aware that this is the case.
DeleteI'm trying hard to to be rude or offensive to Jon here, as I feel he has to tread a little more carefully than I, as he still has family within the group, I do not. My thought is that "Ecclesial Independence" is little more than a cover for what is a "wild west" religion, and simply means in practice, that nobody can be held accountable for the actions of any of it's members. Even if you did go down that route, you would be confronted with the explanation that the religion itself was not at fault, but that the responsibility lies with the individual abuser, and to some extent that is true, however I think we all know that the Christadelphians have a habit of being "unaware" or of "not knowing", whenever any kind of wrongdoing is alleged or presented and are very keen to blame the victim to quickly sweep such matters under the carpet.
How about the grounds that the religion created so toxic an ideological brew that my abusers felt free to violate and injure me under cover of God's blessing? There are organizations with substantive financial holdings in the U.S. Why not seek to claim some of those funds as damages?
ReplyDeleteI'm not trying to tell you to do or not do anything. All I'm saying is that I would be surprised if any of those organisations would take responsibility for the abuse you suffered and offer redress. Whether a court would decide they bore responsibility I have no idea.
DeleteThis is all good feedback. I think there'd be more chance of holding onto a greased pig, than to find a way to hold CDism accountable. There is no central governing body. The ecclesias all operate independently. On every level, they can all plead ignorance. "We knew nothing. We saw nothing. What happened was contrary to our belief system and goals."
ReplyDeleteThis is all not true at all, CDs subject themselves to the law of the land, respect all authorities where it it does not conflict with worship of God. All abuses are for the attention of the police and relevant authorities. Breaking the law is never condoned. People abuse every thing given opportunity and motive, CDS are not exceptions. Mishandling of Abuses are not the norm or the standard
DeleteActually, Dorothy is correct here (and I note that you basically said what she said: "What happened was contrary to our belief systems and goals" - doesn't change the fact it happened, though).
DeleteIn my experience, ecclesial autonomy is frequently talked about in Christadelphian circles, and that does make it harder to hold people accountable for abuses.
To take a very practical example, the Australian National Redress Scheme. From a quick search, it looks like there's no central Australian Christadelphian body signed up. Only a couple of ecclesias have signed up.
Yes, CDs are generally law abiding people. By far and by large. But there are many examples of the opposite being true. I was part of the CD group that migrated into Israel, because it was believed the Second Advent was occurring or imminent. My parents were divorced. My mother removed us from our home country without the knowledge or consent of my father. That's felony kidnapping. While in Israel, the group devolved into dysfunction and violence. Plenty of crimes come to mind: child abuse, spouse abuse, child neglect, public nudity, battery, fraud, thefts, extortion, you name it. This was a group wherein the members could quote Scripture backwards. They'd been CD long-term. Yet these things occurred, and none of it would have been likely to have occurred in a mainstream religious faith. CDism promotes weirdness, cult-like activity, intolerance, stupidity, and even, as was evident in my situation, criminality.
DeleteUpon escaping from the group, I returned home. The ecclesias which had given rise to the group that had emigrated to Israel had no comment to make about any of it. I had returned mangled, malnourished, battered, and violated. No one had any comment to make about any of it, though most had been aware of the group's plans to go to Israel. When I pressed the issue, in an attempt to get other relatives out of the Land of the Chosenites, the response was indifference and shrugs.
It is true that this was an unusual situation, and that some of the members of the group in Israel were manifesting mental illnesses both before and after the migration. But the fact that no one did anything about that, either -- because the delusions were similar enough to CDism's own delusions to feel comfortable -- should speak volumes.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhy are you removing my responses of you are objective and not a maligner
DeleteSigh. You seem to have something against a person who hasn't been involved here for a year. And then it took you all of, what, eleven minutes to decide some malign entity was censoring you.
DeleteThis is a moderated site. You may not have noticed, but when you commented you will have been shown "Your comment will be visible after approval." I'm not hovering by my computer 24/7 waiting to hit the approve button, let alone to rush to censor your brave truth-telling.
This week's BITN is full of the usual nonsense. However, please head over and take a read (I recommend reading this stuff when you are doing something else, so as not to waste your time. I usually read it whilst enjoying my breakfast). Ignore most of it, but consider the following quote:
ReplyDelete"Meanwhile the western democracies are in a state of ideological crisis. Having turned their back on their Biblical roots and tolerating “cancel culture” and “wokeism”, they are left culturally weak and vulnerable. The underpinnings of society have been eroded and as a result, freedoms taken for granted are disappearing. Without any belief in a Creator, and nowhere to turn, they are still reeling from the panic of the pandemic. Turning to draconian measures to enforce restrictions on an unwilling populace. Events in Melbourne, Australia over the last week have highlighted this. These nations have no ideological strength to stand up to an emerging “image empire”! The recent chaotic disastrous retreat from Afghanistan by America demonstrated this".
My former recording brother would loudly proclaim (probably still does), that he was put off religion as a child, by having to attend a once a year service at Peterborough cathedral, apparently instinctively knowing it to be "false", and that the vicar was talking rubbish, not until years later when his then wife had "regained" her childhood religion (Christadelphianism), did he see the light, as it were.
Now, the Christadelphians seem concerned that as a society, we have turned our backs on our Biblical roots. That is those Biblical roots that they have been telling us for 200 years that we all got totally wrong. Why does this concern them? Could it be that their only real source of recruits outside of their own has vanished? What are they going to do about it?
Just a reminder to those not in the UK. It is now 20 months since the meetings closed in the UK, and 17 months since restrictions were lifted, but still they are pleading "covid" as a reason for doing nothing and continuing to not hold meetings.Never mind the west giving up, seems God's chosen ones have too, sorry but a zoom meeting of 20 with a concealed login just doesn't quite cut it, now does it?
I guess I should be glad we've been noticed, but I'm not sure I recognise the Melbourne talked about. Yes, we have had protests (and I assume that is what he's talking about), and yes, police have been out in force trying to stop them. But my sense is still that, while a majority of Melburnians are tired of restrictions (apparently we now have the most days of lockdown anywhere in the world), they are not unwilling to follow them, and are more likely to be ignoring or criticising protestors than joining them.
DeleteGrowing up, I heard that we were "a Christian nation". And also that just about all Christians and would probably be found unworthy at judgement. More recently I've noticed that if Christadelphians I know perceive that other (still considered wrong) Christians are victims of cancel culture or anti-Christian sentiment they are much more likely to defend them. I think it's because they see it as "the world" out to get Bible believing Christians - even if in a different context they would consider those Bible believing Christians wrong and part of "the world". This isn't limited to Christadelphia, either - I gather in maybe the 1960s and '70s US churches that had been denouncing the Catholic church as the false church (and, TBH, probably still do) also discovered that they had a better chance of gaining political power if they could work together with Catholics on certain issues (abortion, for example).
Looking back, I find the "cancel culture" and "wokeism" comments a bit ironic. When I heard people talking about us being a "Christian nation", it was often to say that, as a result, society shouldn't permit things in public that offended us good Christians. And they are looking forward to a future ruler being imposed on the whole world, who will impose his own standards of wokeness (sorry, righteousness) and cancel (sorry, put to death) anyone who doesn't agree with it.
Some other thoughts:
"In Ezekiel 38 the same contest is described, as a battle between the “son of man” and Gog. Verse 2 reads, "Son of man, set thy face against Gog”. By examining some of the other prophecies of restoration that dovetail with Ezekiel 38, it is easy to see that the “son of man” is representative of the Messiah — the Lord Jesus Christ."
This is just so patently false that any serious Bible student should know it - unless they are so used to seeing what they are expecting to find that they are no longer capable of reading the text. I remember we were taught the importance of studying the context around verses, but this one doesn't even quote the full verse. Why not? Because they're too busy looking at "other prophecies" from other books to notice the verse they're reading, let alone the book. In the rest of the book Ezekiel is frequently called "son of man", and this verse is an instruction for Ezekiel to give a prophecy. Nothing more.
Oh, and finally, for all the big deal BITN makes over Russia, Australia now have a plan to get nuclear submarines and to join closer with the UK and the US. I keep hearing one nation's name mentioned as the rival we're preparing for - and it's not Russia. That other nation also has exactly the same number of mentions in the Bible as Australia, as the US, and for that matter the UK and Russia. I've said it before: Why exactly are we going to texts from 2,000 years ago or 2,500 years ago and assuming they are talking about our century, let alone talking about us right now?
I dont know David Billington, I can only assume he lives in some authoritarian fantasy land where information about the rest of the world is pre-filtered to ensure it fits into the only accepted narrative. Here in the UK I dont recognise '... freedoms taken for granted are disappearing.... still reeling from the panic of the pandemic... draconian measures to enforce restrictions on an unwilling populace'. We have many more freedoms than even 10 years ago, age of consent is aligned, you can marry whomever you wish regardless of gender, you can go about your business as a Catholic without having to contend with some religious cranks shouting at you 'The Pope is the Antichrist'. If you are gay you can go about you business buying services like hotel rooms, cakes etc without having to worry that you will be refused because of your 'lifestyle', and you dont have contend with religious cranks shouting hatred at you, under the guise of the Gospel of Christ. Its true that in response to a global pandemic parliament did curtail our freedoms, but almost everyone accepted it as better than the alternative.
DeleteHassan, I actually have quite a bit of sympathy for Billington on those matters, I was the "victim" of a Police stop during the winter lockdown that banned travel, although I was out legitimately and all my permits and I.D were in order. They went well beyond their normal powers in the circumstances, demanded I.D and documentation that no UK citizen is every required to carry, and also themselves blatantly ignored the Covid regulations that the stop was supposed to be required by. Decades of trust in Government and Police went out of the window that night, and I do not think I am alone.
DeleteIn a previous piece, Billington brought up the case of a street preacher who was arrested by the Police, for allegedly homophobic preaching, and there have been other well publicised video clips of similar actions, although in truth, the context is never very clear. This does concern me, as a former street mission preacher in my distant past, I do wonder if the message I was delivering then would see me arrested for one of the vacuous "no crime hate incidents" that seem all the rage these days. I also can't help but notice that another large and peaceful religion have had a noisy street preaching presence in my home town every day for years, and go about their business unmolested. My beef with Billington is how little HIS religion have exercised those freedoms that he now feels are being curtailed, over the years, and his willingness to hang onto the coat tails of organised religion, as and when it suits him.
With regard to some of the freedoms you mention, I suppose it depends on whether you put the "rights" of those desiring such services on a level with, or above, those providing those services. Cleary, I might wish to have the "right" to buy a leg of pork at my local kosher or Halal butchers shop, but that will not be happening any time soon now will it? Nor do I particularly want to be regaled with a month of being told about the history of a particular ethnic group whilst shopping at the local supermarket, however to avoid that, I'm invited to "shop elsewhere if you don't like it". I trust you see the irony, and I'm sure Billington does to, and that his thinking is possibly led by such considerations.
The curtailment of freedoms was not accepted as better than the alternative, it was accepted because we were threatened with arrests/fines if we did not comply.
Joseph. surveys throughout lockdown showed that the vast majority of people in the UK supported the rules. See https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/most-britons-continue-say-they-are-following-coronavirus-rules-almost-half-believe-lockdown. In Jan 21 only 9% thought the rules were too strict, so I stand by my comment that most people accepted them rather than complied because of risk of arrest.
DeleteI wonder if any Christadelphians actually believe that 'Russia Triumphant and Europe Chained' describes the world today. If so then finally after almost 200 years Dr T has been proved right and they can move on.. Oh hang on they have been saying that for 200 years and not moved on.
ReplyDelete“Russia’s Bid for the Conquest of Europe Foretold in the Bible.” The presentation will be given by Mr. Paul Billington the editor of the Bible Magazine and who you often hear on the Bible in the News. The presentation will be on April 3rd at 7:30pm Eastern Daylight Time. - That was 2014, wish it was 2 days earlier :)
From 2007 'But some Bible readers got it absolutely right. For example, in writing an explanation of Daniel's prophecy as long ago as 1854 John Thomas said of Russia: "As the head of a confederacy of the adherents of the Greek and Latin churches, it will be his policy to cause their priesthoods to be respected as useful co-operators in the subjection of Europe to his will."'
Do they not tire of this stuff. Can they not see.
I think it's quite clear that most of them don't notice how repetitive it is - just go "This time is really it!"
DeleteI did notice it as a believer, and (mostly) checked out of prophecy and Signs of the Times as a result. But I stayed because my ecclesia didn't really emphasise prophecy in that way anyway, and I had other reasons to believe. Until I didn't.
Stop wasting your time thinking and writing about these freaks of nature. They are idiots, get over it and move on with your lives. Take up stamp collecting or train spotting or cutting coupons out of news papers. Worry about climate change, not that moron Christ returning to Earth. That's obviously never going to happen.
ReplyDeleteIt would be good if you opened up and gave a right of reply to your opinion. As it this is just a one way mud slinging exercise, in which you seek to throw insults and demonstrate vile agendas of decampaining based on one sided allegations
DeleteAgain, as someone has already commented, your advice isn't that different from telling a former concentration camp inmate to "get over it." Many people process negative experiences by talking about them. That's the function this site serves. And a good one. I would very much agree with you, however, that members should branch out to find new interests and pursuits. Bad things that happen to us are often not our choice. Remaining a victim to the bad things -- and making your victimhood your identity -- I would agree that is something to be avoided. Go ye out into the world. Feel the sun on your face. Eat some ice cream. Kiss someone. Go window shopping in town. Get drunk. Live.
ReplyDeleteYou never recover from a Christadelphian upbringing. It curses you to the grave.
ReplyDeleteHello John,
ReplyDeleteBut, as you have often urged, after leaving one can move on into a new and better life. I agree, CDism never leaves your memory, but you can contrast this with your NABL and be glad that you saw the light.
Yeah, you can "move on to a new and better life", but it's like a leper moving on to "a new and better life" with half his body eaten away by the disease. We are doomed I tell you. We are "unclean" with Christadelphianism. We should hang bells around our necks and shout out "Unclean!" for the rest of our lives. There is no forgiveness for the sin of once being a lunatic Christadelphian. We are like the Nuremberg defendants who were "just following orders." Being burned at the stake is too good for us. That's what "the lake of fire" is for. It's going to burn Christadelphians for eternity, and us along with them.
DeleteWell I reckon that old fake John Martin will getting spit roast right now. I was quite pleased to hear of the nasty man's demise. The sycophantic round up of his fans on YouTube was an hilarious if sicken sight to behold.
DeleteWe carry CDism with us when we leave, many of us for life, yes, but our lives are still vastly better than they'd have been if we stayed in that prison.
ReplyDeleteJohn, I seem to detect, in what you write, a protuberance from you cheek. Would that be a tongue?
ReplyDeleteThe injury to my mouth was caused forty years ago by the arranging brethren at Solihull ecclesia, who attempted to tear the tongue out of my head following my giving a public lecture suggesting that the Earth was far more than six thousand years old. But worse has happened there. Six months ago, the exhorting brother shouted "Tax the rich!" in the middle of his exhortation, and following the conclusion of the meeting they boiled him in oil.
ReplyDeleteAt large your problems seems to be about God, you don't believe in the Bible and God it's a pity CDs happened to be in the way but this has nothing to do with them
DeleteI once got grabbed by the collar and shoved into an all-day meeting I did not want to attend (you know the kind: Sunday School, then the regular service, then a potluck luncheon, then two afternoon lectures, open to "the public," which absolutely never showed up). The person who did the shoving was the unelected head of our little shtetl ecclesia -- an ecclesia wherein half of the members were incestuously related to one another. They felt that gave them leeway to get digital with people like me. The unelected head said he would not tolerate having an empty hall for a visiting lecturer and other visiting Christadelphian crones in the lecturer's entourage. "It will make an unacceptable impression!" he barked. Later, he got cancer of the prostate, which eventually punched his ticket into "The Kingdom." Sitting on the steps outside our chapel, in Adelphi, Maryland, after his death, I overheard one elderly bat commenting in a low voice to another: "How appropriate, for a prick to die from prick cancer."
ReplyDeleteI think we all know that most "meetings" are run by two or at most three families, and that they will do their utmost to marry off their children to the closest legally acceptable relative. When some poor sap enters from "the outside", the gene pool is invariably doubled...
DeleteThe November 7th 2021 edition of Bible In The News, is, at time of writing, only available as a Podcast. It is mostly moaning about poor standards in the education system, and the removal of certain books from schools, and how (Christadelphians?). Might consider home schooling. Here is their introduction:
ReplyDelete" This past week the elections in the US, and concerns raised north of the boarder on what books are being removed from public school libraries, has shined the light on a progressive agenda to indoctrinate our children with radical views on race and identity. When we look at what is behind these issues we find an agenda in conflict with the truth of God's word. The real issue is human nature. God will resolve these issues with the return of His son, who will bring justice and will rule with fairness. Until then, as followers of Christ, we should be ensuring our children are not being taught radical ideas opposed to Biblical values"
Brilliant spelling and grammar from those Christadelphians who would have us believe their Biblical knowledge and translation skills from Hebrew and Greek is so vastly superior to all others, and believe that their children should be home schooled.
Ready to rule over the World, but too thick to even proof read their nonsense!
Censorship can be an issue, sure. But I find it hard to take their concern seriously when I look at how many books as a child I would have been forbidden or at least strongly discouraged from reading, and look at the history of Christians (and, to be fair, other religions too) trying to censor things that disagree with or offend their religious sensibilities. They don't like other people censoring or restricting access to things they hold important, but I suspect have no problem with the idea of restricting access to things others might consider important.
DeleteMy opinion: Anyone who thinks that (their interpretation of) a 2,000+ year old collection of religious texts is truth and anything opposing it is indoctrination has lost the plot. I can't be bothered listening to it to find which particular things they are objecting to, but suspect they are more likely to be based on truth and recent research. I guess that makes it "the wisdom of this world" and inherently suspect, though...
I can't be bothered to listen to it either, but I am interested to know what his idea of a radical view of race is.
ReplyDeleteThe text is up now, it seems he is bothered by teaching that colonialism is bad, he asserts that it brought both good and bad - I am not sure the Indigenous people would agree with that. He does not explain how teaching about Colonialism is 'in conflict with the truth of God's word'.
ReplyDeleteIs he right about not finding female apostles in the NT? I think not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junia_(New_Testament_person)
OK, I called it. Bible in the News:
ReplyDelete"The values which are guiding policy makers are not Biblical. They are based on human reasoning and human wisdom."
Now if they'd just used "the wisdom of this world" it would have been exactly what I said ;)
I very likely agree with much of the action that BitN is criticising. But even if I didn't, the fact still remains that BitN want to privilege a religious text compiled thousands of years ago over everything we have learned since then. In principle*, educators would be open to change their approach if they discovered other things work better, while BitN is stuck with a theoretically unchanging standard (because in practice Bible interpretations can and do change, even if the text doesn't). I'd prefer us to work off evidence rather than (alleged) divine revelation.
* In practice, they're human and I'm sure it's more complicated than that.
Interesting. I found myself agreeing with much of what the Christadelphians think on this occasion, but then as an old, white, straight person, brought up with traditional values in a Christian home, that's perhaps not surprising. Had I been brought up in an atheist household, the sperm donor child of a mixed race couple of which one half was transgender and the other left and took no part in my upbringing, then I would surely not share any of their thinking.
DeleteThis weeks contribution in BITN is exhorting young CDs not to do anything about the climate crisis, not because it does not exist but because 'Jesus [when he returns] will change the climate and in so doing will meet the needs of the poor and needy'. They don't seem to care about the 'poor and needy' suffering before the return. Strangely they don't apply the same logic to problems that cause them suffering. Its a cold, uncaring religion.
ReplyDeleteHassan, what BITN describes is the standard Christadelphian response, I was regularly hearing the same 20+ years ago. The group I was in had a lot of very wealthy, greedy members, and this was the excuse used to justify their profligate lifestyles, and almost certainly still is from what I hear.
DeleteThe stance could well work against them now though. Environmentalism is now more mainstream, and is sort of a "religion" of the young and presenting them with the exact opposite from the platform could well drive some away, or at least cause them to question their involvement.
I was brought up in a not very well off household, we had the basics and were well fed and warm, took modest holidays and had a basic, modest car, my parents always having time for us as they were not constantly tied up doing bible study or travelling far and wide "in the service of the truth". Of necessity our consumption of resources was low. When i joined the Christadelphians, I entered a different world where greedy grabbing behaviour and wasteful excessive living for personal gratification was the norm, and was excused by manipulation of scripture.
A disgusting and nasty little cult that we are well rid of, one of the reasons I read BITN is to remind me of that lest I should ever go soft and think otherwise.
Normally I would call out Christadelphian nonsense on BITN, however last weeks offering with regard to Holocaust remembrance day, had what seemed to me to be an unusual amount of truth and sensible observation in what it reported, a few days after it was published, we had the Whoopi Goldberg incident, which just seemed to add weight to what the Christadelphians were saying.
ReplyDeleteSo thanks BITN, at last something that makes sense!
For the record, the quote from ilga-europe appears to be from 2021, not one issued this year 2022. But that makes little difference to the story as reported.
Joseph, not sure if you are still here or not, but at least we are back to normal after Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde has been sent packing, and BITN is back to its usual nonsense. I think they have surpassed themselves this week in claiming that Bible Students have expected the invasion of Ukraine for thousands of years! Surely they know the Bible has not existed for thousands of years. They refer back to a post of 2006 that itself refers back to something Pearce wrote in 1970, a prediction that the Soviet Union would expand westward. But Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union then. At least its an admission that they have been saying the same old same old for over 50 years.
ReplyDeleteThey see a prophecy under every bed. And as for Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, he had redeeming qualities, but he should have been reined in long ago. LONG AGO.
ReplyDeleteHassan: The genius ability of Christadelphians to correctly identify the close correlation between Bible prophecy and world events, coupled with their uncanny intellect in rejecting the lunatic doctrines of mainstream Christianity, leave me amazed that Ex-Christadelphians are unable to identify Christadelphianism as the only true religion in a sea of flotsam and jetsam of erroneous human dogma. Your determination to censor anything said in defence of this magnificent religion underscores to me that you are scared witless that you have made a catastrophic mistake opposing what is clearly the work of Almighty God. Unless you all repent quickly you will end up in the Lake of Fire suffering eternal torment. When that happens, don’t count on me to pull you out. I’ll be hosing you down with jet fuel and frying marshmallows on the resulting conflagration.
ReplyDeleteThe comment is clearly satirical, and this isn't the place for yet another lengthy discussion of commenting policy, but just as a point of fact: We do not censor pro-Christadelphian comments, though we may well respond and criticise the arguments in such comments.
ReplyDeleteI'm serious Jon. I'm not being satirical. If you guys are going to continue to rudely disparage my lovely Christadelphian relatives and friends, I am going to give you some deadly serious reasons why the Bible is telling us the truth from start to finish. Let me write articles again and I'll explain to you all why the Wave Function, the nature of fundamental particles, high energy physics, the work of Richard Feynman, QED and the Maxwell equations prove the existence of the Holy Spirit. If the Christadelphians dare not take you on, in the recent words of Donald Trump about the Russians, "I'm going to blow you to pieces." Stop mocking the Christadelphians, now you have me to deal with. I'll send your page views to over 100,000 per month.
DeleteThe way I see it is that Ex-Christadelphians against Christadelphians is not a fair fight. We can wipe the floor with them. So I am going to change sides and work with the Christadelphians so we can get a level playing field and make it a much more interesting debate.
DeleteYou asked for (and received) author permissions last year. And then chose to walk away from it multiple times, so I eventually revoked them. We don't need any more of that.
DeleteThis isn't a game, and I'm not interested in debate for the sake of debate. Christadelphians are welcome to criticise things written here, but you don't represent them. Unless I have reason to believe actual Christadelphians would make the arguments you make (and I don't) it doesn't contribute to the conversation.
John, so do as you say, change sides and go and work with the Christadelphians, visit ecclesias -- but don`t try it on here.
DeleteJohn, I don't see it as a fight at all. Perhaps on your new site you can take both sides and fight with all your other egos.
DeleteBack in 1970 when Pearce wrote that I was a young child and subjected to it week by week, I was convinced the end was nigh and I was scared witless then. I had to call him and people like him 'Uncle'. I am not scared now, as for CDism being the only true religion, I was recently at a funeral - the only time I set foot in an Ecclesial Hall these days - and CDs there were adamant that they dont claim a monopoly on salvation. There are estimated to be over 45000 different protestant denominations, thats more denominations than people in the only true one, so it would be a stretch for them to claim all the others are wrong. (source https://www.gordonconwell.edu/center-for-global-christianity/wp-content/uploads/sites/13/2022/01/Status-of-Global-Christianity-2022.pdf)
ReplyDeleteAll religion is delusion. All religion is mysticism and superstition made incarnate. Shun it and live in the light of science and reason. There is no reason to expend any energy on any religious mumbo jumbo. There is every reason NOT to do so.
ReplyDelete"My lovely Christadelphian friends and relatives..."
ReplyDeleteFor some of us, they were the opposite of "lovely."
Talk about a narcissist who thinks the whole world revolves around him and his own life experiences.
I think there are a couple of separate things here, both important: Belief and behaviour.
ReplyDeleteAs far as behaviour goes, I largely get on well with Christadelphian family members and friends. But I'm also well aware that many were not so lucky.
As far as beliefs go, I think Christadelphian beliefs should be assessed on their merits, no matter how lovely or awful the people who hold them are, and I don't think those beliefs stand up to scrutiny.
Of course, as we've discussed before, behaviour can be connected to beliefs - say, believing they need to shun unbelieving relatives, or LGBT people, or whatever, then acting on it. But I don't think it works the other way round: Even if every Christadelphian was the loveliest person in the world, it wouldn't make their beliefs true.
Neither they -- nor the historical record of many of them misbehaving and mistreating others -- automatically command any kind of respect. It is not owed to them. Respect is earned. It is not an entitlement.
ReplyDeleteDorothy, it is easy on one`s mind, especially when having been subject to abuse or having been badly treated by someone or several from a particular group, to tar the lot with the same brush. I think that this is a mistake, though an understandable human reaction.
DeleteOf course there are "good" and "worthy" Christadelphians. Many fit that description. Just as there are "good" and "worthy" Russians currently invading the Ukraine. Just as there were "good" and "worthy" people following Jim Jones and Vernon Wayne Howell before they became destructive. That does not change the fact that these activities and groups don't require lip service honoring them. I see nothing in Christadelphianism or any other form of religion that commands respect. It is all primitive delusion, stemming from scribblings on parchments unearthed in caves. And like all religions, and all forms of behavior-controlling belief systems, it is very often a prison. Does being a member make you evil? No. But nor does it demand homage or tacit approval through our silence. When people have been abused by such groups and exploited and controlled by them, they can and should shout about the immoral treatment they received in them. That was the rub with John Bedson -- he didn't want to hear any of it, when such things MUST be heard.
ReplyDeleteThis weeks blog on BITN is not one I am going to waste my time listening to, but the title of the video must surely cause alarm bells in reasonable CDs. It reads like it is celebrating Russia's victory. - Russia Triumphant, Europe in Chains. Quite apart from the fact that it is clear Russia has withdrawn from Kiev, and Europe is not in chains at all.
ReplyDeleteThe convolutions they go through in their fevered minds are appalling.
ReplyDeleteI don`t normally look at BITN, but after Hassan`s post, I did. It makes me compare these thoughts by, as Donald describes, "fevered minds", with those with insanity, and conclude that that is what it must be.
DeleteJoseph mentioned the latest BITN, and I read it, and, well, I have thoughts...
ReplyDeleteAs I've probably said before, I would say the Babel story shows a humanity with much less power than humanity today being a threat to God. And yet he doesn't seem to have intervened in the same way. Why not?
"In a democracy, the power is said to be of the people. In reality the power actually lies with those who form the opinion of the people; in the educators, the media and who controls what information the people see — social media applications and internet search engines. So mankind has become expert in the art of shaping the narrative, putting a spin on the story, so that it support the desired ideology."
This is somewhat true. But the author shows no awareness that they might be doing exactly the same thing with their particular ideology...
"We are being warned by the Lord Jesus not to believe the media — the mouth piece of the world governments. Not to believe what we hear. Not to be deceived. "
I think plenty of journalists would object to this characterisation. And I know journalists certainly can hold governments to account, though it doesn't always happen.
"Whatever we think of the former American president, Donald Trump, it is clear the mass media was against him."
Fox News for some reason not being part of the mass media.
"Social media and in particular Twitter was said to democratize the news. Now the power of the news would be with the people.This has been shown to be illusionary. The idea that the information on Twitter was controlled, may have been considered a “conspiracy theory” not so long ago. However, the purchase and recent changes at the Twitter corporation have proved unequivocally that this was the case. The new CEO and owner of Twitter Elon Musk confirmed that the statement that, “Censorship has been deployed as a one-way operation against conservatives” is correct. In a rather incredible tweet he wrote, “As is obvious to all but the media, there is not one permanent ban on even the most far left account spouting utter lies." The large social media companies have been run by left wing ideologues. They have built these social media applications to put before people the information which suits their ideology. Information that supports their world view is automatically put at the top of a user's feed. Posts that do not are put at the bottom of the stack where they are rarely seen."
I am truly astounded by this paragraph. It is, apparently, proven unequivocally just because Elon said it. Sure, Elon has an opinion, but there's no particular reason to trust that opinion either more or less than we did before he bought Twitter (which also isn't necessarily going that well for him...).
"Paradoxically the governments are warning about the danger of “misinformation”. This is of course any information that challenges the approved view. This is an age of group think, where there is one approved world view and anything else is not tolerated. Certainly not God’s view as expressed in His word."
ReplyDeleteI'd suggest again that they consider how they treat any information that challenges their approved view of the world. (I left Christadelphia and religion because I decided there was a lot of such information out there, and that it was true...).
"At the basis of the conflict is the Roman Church’s ideological opposition to the return of the Jews and their sovereignty over the so called “holy sites” in the land of Israel."
Nothing to do with Palestinians? Interesting...
"There is a great danger if we allow the mass media to shape our opinion of these events. Before long we may begin to speak less about the hope of Israel. We may not want to speak about the restored kingdom of Israel to our friends, or include it in our preaching. In so doing we would not be preaching the gospel properly."
Well, that's OK with me, because I'm on record with my opinion that Christadelphians badly misunderstand "the hope of Israel" (to be clear: I do not accept the authority of the Bible, but I also conclude that the original authors of the NT probably didn't mean anything like what the Christadelphians believe).
"So let us be aware that we live in an age of deception. Let us question everything we hear on the mass media and social media. Finally, let us preach the Gospel of the restoration of the kingdom to Israel with all confidence."
I'd suggest other lines of questioning that might be more useful, but hey, not my podcast...
So Jossph, I am confused as to why you say they have finally woken up, this is surely the same as always - total rubbish - Russia is not really losing the war, Covid vaccines are not safe, and there is some massive left wing conspiracy telling us otherwise.... "In other words the European Union, Russia the Vatican (Roman Church) and the Greek Orthodox Church. Currently these powers are at war with each other". What? the Greek church is at war? the EU is at war - no they are not.
ReplyDeleteHassan, of course BITN is rubbish as usual, as are pretty much all pronouncements by Christadelphians.
DeleteWhat caught my eye is that they seem to have realised that all sides of the media are biased, one way or the other, something that has always been the case, however, things just seem more polarised than ever.
Normally, Christadelphians have used and quoted the BBC as a font of truth and reliability, this latest piece seems to doubt that.
The BBC have been caught out for misinformation and bias many times over the years, just surprised that only now have the Christadelphians latched onto that, perhaps only because they have gone against the CD narrative, for many people, myself included, the BBC have lost respect because they invent stories, rather than simply reporting facts.
Joseph, I'm not from the UK, don't read the BBC unless linked to an article by someone, so can't make any statement about its reliability. But I'm not sure it's an improvement going from "We sometimes accept some mainstream sources of news" to "(Our interpretation of) the Bible is the only source of truth, and if anything disagrees with it we will reject that thing almost by definition". Because to me the BBC (or for that matter any news source) doesn't have to be perfect to be useful: It just has to be right more of the time than wherever else they're deciding to get their information from.
DeleteSeems some of their authors have already given up on the news and instead make up their own. The week he seems to argue that the media being silent on how dangerous the Covid vax is, is evidence that they are also silent on the fact that Russia is really winnings its war. The classic merging of two unrelated conspiracies to justify each other. The previous week, the author accepted that Russia is losing and likely will lose the war, that author seems to accept the news.
ReplyDelete