Right now, the world is reeling from the Russian invasion of Ukraine. And some Christadelphians are excited about it. Just like so many times before. Prophecy is unfolding before their eyes. The end times are here, and the return of Jesus is just around the corner. It’s the fulfilment of God’s great plan, and anyone who happens to be hurt by it is just unfortunate collateral damage.
But that’s not really what I want to talk about. I want to talk about
prophecy that really does come true.
Whatever you think of the WAR,its a disgrace. Now there is talk of public exacutions. Even the two lovley boys Strong & Morgan will agree on that.
ReplyDeletePaul, may I confirm that I do not have an opinion on the special military operation that Russia is carrying out in Ukraine. Also, I would confirm that I do not collude or even correspond in any way with the editor of this site, other than by comment.
DeleteAs I may have previously commented, I do no own a TV set, and am prohibited by UK law from watching any live TV broadcast of any type, from anywhere, since several years ago. I chose not to fund our state broadcast system, and am thus prohibited by law from watching any such material. I have of course used legally accessible services to look at reports regarding the operation ongoing in Ukraine. It seems to me that there has been bad blood between the opposing parties, dating back many years. However, none of this is of my concern. It is a commonly held belief that "everyone is entitled to his own opinion", my belief is that this only applies if one is qualified to have such an opinion. I often use the example in such circumstances, "what is your opinion of developments in brain surgery between 1990 and 2005?". Very clearly, as I am not, and never have been, a brain surgeon, so am unable to have a valid opinion (were such an opinion sought as to my preference for a piled foundation solution in alluvial soils within the UK, then, clearly, I may have a valid comment to make).
My reading of the Ukraine situation is that two groups of Slavs are in a dispute over territory, and over the future direction of their nations.
At a personal level, my observation is that Ukrainians have been arriving in increasing numbers in the town in which I live, and have expectations of housing, food, and employment being provided, that is as much as I know. Should you have better information, then please let us all know.
You dont have an opinion on innocent suffering??? How does one exaclty become qualified for an opinion on that, please let us all know? As far as better information is concearned you miss the point. I thought you would agree War, and all that goes with it was a bad thing????
DeleteJoseph, as I understand Russian speaking " Ukrainians " would prefer to be under the rule of Russia, and as you mentioned, Ukraine people having those differences in the eastern part of the country don't really get on with one another, but for Putin to go in with boots and all, destroy their homes and kill so many innocent civilians is bit below the belt. He might have thought that this was going to be one week special military operation, turned in to a bloodbath and distraction of cities and towns. CD's are all of a sudden hyped up about "end time" dream of theirs, that's what they preach about Russian aggression, now fit's in with their preaching, more meetings now, get ready to rule the world with Christ because they are special, sadly this bunch will never learn, brainwashed all the time.
DeletePaul, like I've commented before, you have a history of short comments that no-one is really sure what you're trying to say, and that doesn't help discussion.
ReplyDeleteI have no idea why you are singling me and Joseph out - do we usually seem pro-war? Or is it something else completely?
Anyway, I'd make three points:
1. The war in Ukraine is not a good thing.
2. Some Christadelphians are saying they're excited about it. This seems at best tone-deaf.
3. I have no specific insights on the invasion of Ukraine, which is why I instead wrote about the prophecy implications. That's also why I thought the post relevant to this site.
When the horror of the Ukraine invasion came on the news one of my first thoughts was to wonder how many brethren were scouring the bible for now obvious references to it. (I was disfellowshipped 46 years ago for taking communion at a C of E church)
DeleteI think you do know what im getting at.If anyone comments on this site that either of you two dont like or agree on they are shot down in flames. Doesnt worry me personally what you have to say to me, but i think you could be a bit less arrogant and condesending at times with others. You certainly dont have to like or agree with what people say . Fair enough...But handle it a bit different. I will give you the thumbs up for point 1 in your three points.I think you are a bit off track with point 2. Not all are excited to see innocent people suffer, in fact i think most are not.If people enjoy that, they are mentally not well.Point 3 you are honest and fair enough.
ReplyDeletePaul, anyone less arrogant and condescending than Jon would be hard to find. Jon`s point 2 is correct. Cds are excited about what Putin is doing in Ukraine. Some have told me so. This does mean that they are tone-deaf. How can anyone be excited on the one hand about where they see God`s hand in the affairs of humans, and on the other not be confused that God`s hand causes so much suffering. But then, perhaps they manage to turn a blind eye when they read the carnage and suffering caused by God`s hand in the stories of the OT. I don`t, of course, see God`s hand in this or believe there is such a god.
DeleteThanks, Mancott.
DeletePaul, like Mancott, I've heard Christadelphians say they are excited, and seen Facebook posts from people I know saying it's exciting. I'm well aware that it's not all Christadelphians, which is why I said "some".
And I think it would be courteous to believe that when I say I don't understand what you're getting at, I mean it.
Hi All,
DeleteMy own CD mother put in a family group chat "Very amazing things unfolding around us, Christ could be here very soon!!" This is very typical CD speak for when they think their prize is coming soon and who really cares about the death of Women and Children. I'm sure when asked most CD's wouldn't think the death of Women and Children is a good thing but mostly don't give it much thought and prefer to concentrate on their prize.
I can just imagine all the talk of the Ukraine War at CD meetings on Sundays of prophecy being fulfilled and not a thought or second given to all the innocent deaths occurring.
What gets me is Christ’s return is always imminent, soon, could happen anytime etc. but then someone will give a talk on prophecy detailing the events before Christ’s return. If all these events have to happen first and your interpretation of the prophecy is correct then I don’t believe you can have it both ways.
The prophecy in the Bible is not specific and like most other non specific prophecies can be lined up to any sort of event eventually. To be in line with modern methods of reasoning the bible verse would need to go something like this. Ezekiel 38 verse 1 - Therefore I say in March of the year 2022 the President Valdimir Putin of the country named Russia will send in troops in Ukraine and attack the country to attempt to take over the government and run the country.
Ezekiel 38 verse 2 - This would say if he is successful or not.
That is something I could believe if proof was given that it was made long before the event. Any sort of prophecy less that that is not something I can believe in and if you use modern methods of reasoning you properly wouldn’t either.
Exactly right RadMan. Like Brexit which simply reversed a 1973 event and in 1973 they did not say that it would be a while before the return. If Putin is successful, then it would simply reverse a 1991 event when Ukraine left the Soviet Union. What they say on BITN etc is that Russia will form an alliance with Catholic Europe. Putin's war has moved us away from that as 'Catholic Europe' is strengthening its ties to the NATO military alliance. CDs have saying the return is imminent for 150 years now.
DeleteAnother one of my short comments..that will get somone going im sure!
DeleteWas Ezekiel really talking about Russia anyway??The article on here about that makes interesting reading. Who knows?
Nostradamus is just as reliable. Shun delusion and mysticism. They're piles of chicken droppings.
DeleteYou may have misunderstood me on this ocassion if you really did thats fair enough.Although not all replys are courteous at times.
ReplyDeleteI can only hope that the "some" you refer too are only excited what they think is profecy is coming alive. I spoke to one yesterday and she is excited, but certainly not with the suffering. I for one am certainly not excited by the suffering.The videos out there are heartbreaking and shocking period.
Paul, the "prophecy is coming alive" in Cds thinking must be, as they understand it, by the Hand of God, and so the resulting associated suffering must also be down to the H-o-G, and it is difficult to understand how Cd`s can separate excitement about the one from being "heartbroken and shocked" about the other.
ReplyDeleteYes the logic is impeccable, I have not seen them say the invasion is the work of the angels, but as they say that about Brexit, why not this ?
DeletePat Robertson, the ex US TV evangelist who has the same view of prophecy as the CDs and said that God compelled Putin to invade!
OH. MY. GOD. It's GOG and MAGOG, heading south to invade the precious Zionist motherland !! %$%$#$@!! It's a gonna happen THIS TIME (never mind the last fifty times we were positive about it being imminent). Where's Ethel Merman? We need her to sing the overture!
ReplyDeleteHey all, I find the site and comments interesting. I recently left a cult after nearly 40 years and finally feel at peace. One of the things I couldn't get past was the doom and gloom. Everytime Russia or a country in the middle east makes a fuss, THIS IS IT! THE RETURN only to be disappointed over and over. Brethren even put a date on it. The hypocrisy of it all. Brother Thomas said this or that as if he was inspired in some way while calling Joseph Smith a fraud. Saying don't be involved in politics but you keep putting the same power hungry brothers as AB's for years knowing there are problems. Once you leave, you are cut off as if you never existed. I feel at peace for once in my life. Thanks for listening.
DeleteI apologize for the similar response. I didn't see the original post after I published it so I tried to post again only to realize that it took a little while to show up. Sorry.
DeleteHey guys, I have found this site and discussions quite interesting being a Christo for nearly 40 years and left. There are many of us who feel the way we do and have since left. For me, I had such a hard time with the hypocrisy of it all. You preach not to get involved in politics or voting but you vote in the same brothers on a power trip for years much like we are seeing in some of our governments. They preach not to get involved but let the world handle it while we sit back in an armchair and wait for the return. Everything Russia or another nation makes a fuss, THIS IS IT!! Only to be disappointed over and over. Brothers even trying to put dates on it, yes I have heard it. I always heard Brother Thomas says this or that as if he was inspired in some way and they call Joseph Smith a fraud. I felt like I wasted half of my life in a cult. Met some genuine people over the years and many who claim they never knew you once you leave. I don't believe they know anything about what the Bible really says having claimed to read it all their lives. For once I feel at peace. Sad to say but the pandemic showed many people the truth. Thanks for listening.
ReplyDeleteIt's all a lot of oral masturbation for people who are incapable of otherwise living structured and meaningful lives. Instead, they drown themselves in a lot of idiotic primitive scribblings, writings full of superstition and violence that condone slavery, killing, and misogyny. Best thing that ever happened to me was the day I got up quietly during a service and serenely walked out to the parking lot and drove away, saying to myself: "That's a door I'll never darken again."
ReplyDeleteI understand completely Dorothy.
DeleteBothers me greatly that all prophecies and morality are considered illegitimate unless derived from the Bible. Read Marcus Aurelius -- much of the morality dictated in the Bible is also expressed in his writings. "Do unto others...." So much for such tenets being handed down from "on high."
ReplyDeleteWas in the bank the other day, and a CD was in the line ahead of me. She turned and recognized me, gave me an almost solemn little smirk, and said, "What is man, that Thou, God, are even mindful of him?"
ReplyDeleteI responded without biting my tongue: "What is GAWD, that man is mindful of HIM? What is GAWD, that man is mindful of fraudulent DELUSIONS? Can your GAWD be seen, or touched? Does he speak to us and command us? Does he pay our electric bill or heal our colon cancer? WHERE ARE YA, DEAR GAWD."
She stood there and gave me a baleful stare, along with the two other bank customers, who were wondering what the hell was going on.
My acquaintance then turned her back on me.
I pointed at the vault and yelled, "Maybe HE is in THERE, where they've got the HOLY GHOST and JIMMY HOFFA locked up!"
Whereupon she put back her deposit slip and fled into the parking lot.
John Bedson is posting some pretty vicious rants of his own about this site, on his "Former Christadelphians" site. He is an apologist for the cult, and anything anyone suffered in it is to be disregarded, because the cult's members are, in his opinion, essentially "nice people."
ReplyDeleteTalk about theater of the absurd.
I see no evidence his site is getting any traction.
Good.
John's welcome to publish whatever he likes. I haven't read it, but I doubt it merits any more response than has been given in lengthy comment threads earlier this year.
DeleteI walked away from the Cds about 40 years ago, and of the handful of Cds that I then had as good friends, most have remained good friends, even though they are still "in" and I am very much "out". This friendship I value and encourage, though it irritates me that they can`t see what they still accept as bible truth.
DeleteAs for John B, I still think that something happened to John to alter his mindset in some way. I haven`t visited his "Former Christadelphians" site.
Russia is not winning this war. It is not according to christadelphian understanding which is Turkey not Ukraine according to Dr Thomas. Now of Russia and Iran was to invade Saudi Arabia I might start to believe. However this is just another red herring
ReplyDeleteThe red herring is the whole basis of CD doctrine, that the whole bible is literally true and relevant to us today, and therefore talk of a thousand years, beasts and images must be fitted in to current or near future events. In the normal church this is part of what we call dispensationalism, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism). This is a modern idea that took hold in the mid 19th century, Dr Thomas just developed a non-trinitarian sub-version of the pre-millenialist version. Something that CDs are blind to. They dont even look to see where they fit in Church history.
ReplyDeleteHassan.....very well said. And the older I get, the more I flee from all organized religion as being mass delusion.
ReplyDeleteIt is more of an encumbrance or burden than a benefit.
All religion is bat shxt. CDism is just a battier version of it. Live with clear vision. We are born, we die. Create your own meaning and purpose in the interim period. Shun all imaginary nonsense and live in the light of reason.
ReplyDeleteMarge, "...live in the light of reason", is good advice, and it is to be hoped that young Cds who study at uni, as they are taught to apply reason to subjects, this reasoning approach might filter down through any indoctrination previously overlaid upon them by Cd parents and other Cds, when all they had to do was believe and not question or examine.
ReplyDeleteThe only other way to avoid bat shxt is to stay indoors at night and stay out of caves.
When I look at what CDism has done to my relatives....it makes me want to weep. It has turned them into Stepford wives. It has hobbled and shackled and limited their lives and their potentials. In that regard it -- and all religion perhaps -- is evil. I understand now why the Communists dynamited churches. I think in that situation, however, that the suckers just replaced one form of religion with another (the replacement was Communism/Socialism).
ReplyDeleteMy sister is married to a very fundamental christadelphian and I have watched her disappear little by little.
ReplyDeleteMy beautiful, funny, intelligent sister got swallowed up by this insidious, harmful sect.
It's tragic isn't it. I feel like I wasted half of my life I can no longer get back because of it. Since I have left I can honestly say I feel happy and at peace. No more doom and gloom. This is the end times everytime some country makes a move. Hypocrisy at it's finest. If John Thomas wasn't inspired then why bash other religions and their founders. Won't look back.
DeleteIt is a "cult," regardless of what John Bedson contends. The longer most of us are out of it, the clearer that becomes.
ReplyDeleteIt takes time to see things clearly. The scales don't completely fall from your eyes for a number of years. And then, the longer you're away from them, the more horrified you become looking at what you were once a part of. My own relatives are absolutely lunatics when it comes to CD doctrine. They have no self-perception at all. They are around the bend and nutty on CD BS.
ReplyDeleteWhen I would not conform to their beliefs, or remain a part of their group, they asked me to go whitewater rafting on a very dangerous river with people I'd never met. I was asked to spend the night in a motel room with people I'd never met. "Friends." At first I was going to go; and then it occurred to me I'd never received such an invitation before. It didn't feel safe. In my gut, I felt uneasy. I'd also just received an inheritance, which my relatives felt was part of an estate that wasn't divided up fairly. I thought, "My uneasiness is unwarranted. These are CDs, pacifists." Then I heard about the New England CD who turned out to be a serial killer. That was when I cancelled the river trip. Curiously, none of my relatives then went on the trip.
ReplyDeleteYou tell me.
Jody, if you read the things you have posted in a novel you wouldn`t believe they could happen in real life. But, apparently, they do. Fortunately, the majority of Cds do not behave in this way. What is not fortunate for them, or most of them, is that they are by indoctrination trapped in a belief that is not reasonable. They don`t think for themselves. They just go on believing what has been, and is still being, pushed into them, and confirmed and perpetuated by Confirmation Bias.
DeleteThey're a pretty cult. Kind of like the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Mennonites. Everything looks neat and tidy superficially, and behind the scenery often lurks Dorian Grey.
ReplyDeleteJust was told by a convert to CD's that what is happening in Ukraine is the start of what is to come. Gog\Rosh has started his move, and Christ return is just around the corner, Putin will attack Turkey next then move towards Israel, this lady said : " you may not find me one day, I will be taken ". these idiots are out of this world, just can't help themselves from making up these prophesies and truly believe in the BS they put out. I said when the war stops at Ukraine, I will remind you that all this BS you talking about was just CD's dream, ohh no she said, you are wrong, we are right, because we know. OMG another nut case.
ReplyDeleteAnon, try suggesting to this person that, if her God is behind the move by Putin in Ukraine, and this is His plan, then it must logically follow that all the destruction and death of men, women, young children and new-born babies, is also down to Him. Is this the kind of God she`s happy to worship?
DeleteThe short answer: YES.
DeleteI was raised in this cult. They do not love God, they fear him. Righty so , just read the Bible.
DeleteThe problem with their tradition of fearing their "benevolent God," is that they're okay with following that model in other ways: ruling as parents by using fear, using punitive measures in disciplining members, etc. I attended a CD church in Maryland in which the entire congregation operated in fear of the self-appointed Alpha male who considered the ecclesia to be his personal domain. He used his mouth as his weapon, and kicked asses far and wide. Near the end of his life, the ecclesia began to turn on him. "What took you so long?" was my response.
DeleteWe called the adult men and women, "uncle" and "aunt," even though I have no memory of them making any meaningful investment in my life or welfare. Even my actual relatives in the ecclesia regarded me with indifference. The adults called one another "brother" and "sister." It was all like some ridiculous "Amos and Andy" sitcom episode, or some "StepandFetchit" skit, which became especially nauseating when you had some "uncle" screaming his disapproval in your face. I remember asking one time:
Delete"If the Jews are God's chosen people, why did he do nothing while six million of them were slaughtered in Europe?" I was told they had to be treated harshly to convince them to return to Israel. "Wouldn't killing just a million of them be enough to convince them?" I asked, in all sincerity. That was the kind of questioning that would result in screams of outrage. What a cursed bunch, that scruffy bunch of "the elect." "Elect." LOL, indeed. More like "Village of the Damned."
The CDs' attitude toward Ukraine? Sort of like how Israel can slaughter thousands of Palestinians and CDs and other good Christians turn a blind eye. "It's part of God's plan." "We must not criticize God's holy people." Brainwashed suckers.
ReplyDeleteFew of their "prophecies" come true. They just rework their bullshit material to fit whatever is happening. It is pathetic. No one is coming, folks. Get up off your asses and make the world a better place. Heaven and Hell are both right here. Be a part of creating Heaven on earth -- it is all you're going to get.
ReplyDeleteYes, Margaret, those of us who have been there understand how it is that they continue to believe as they do. If they read your comment, they will probably feel sorry that you/we have given up on the chance of being in the Kingdom. How to get them to examine in a rational way their take on the the Bible is uncertain. Face to face discussions get nowhere. What can be done to get them first, to read the blog, and second, what can be written to cause them to pause in their conviction. Or should we just not bother?
DeleteThey'll come when they're ready, like I did. It's a process. Most never come at all. We must salvage the remnant.
DeleteIn the news today:
Delete70 plus Pentecostals holed up in a church in Nigeria since April, because their pastor had told them the Return would be in that month (probably on a Tuesday?); they have been released by the police. First they were told April, now this has been changed to September.
Mancott, Christadelphians, when it is pointed out to them that their sect is in terminal decline, will often say, "but there is growth in Africa!"
DeleteJoseph, If you think of Cd`s as plants, place the British plant alongside the African plant and you will see two quite different plants.
DeleteMancott, are you suggesting then, that British Christadelphians, and African Christadelphians, are not of "like precious faith"? I mean I can see that the Sodomite welcoming Edinburgh branch of the sect might not be, but the Africans?
DeleteMancott, with regard to your comment to Margaret, last week, due to the condition of a very vaguely related person to myself, it struck me again, how despite this wonderful hope affects Christadelphians, it seems to rarely enthuse them so much that they wish to spend any real time or effort to "save" others from the "outside", seemingly hoping that telepathy from their living rooms will bring them flooding in.
DeleteGone are the days of the "Public Lecture", now we have:
" After lunch occasionally, at 1pm, we hold a Bible talk which is open to the public. This lasts 15 minutes approx". Occasionally. 15 mins. Approx.
Even Bible class has fallen to post pandemic economies it seems.
"On Wednesdays at 7.45 we hold a Bible Class talk on various Bible topics. This is on Zoom"
Most now require "prior notice" if you intend to attend a Bible talk. Given the spectacular nature of the product they have for sale, you might expect them to put in just a little more marketing effort.
Joseph, put it this way, ecclesias being autonomous, all over the world there are differences , especially in practice, and often in belief between them. In my opinion the rapid growth of Cd ecclesias in Africa is down to a watering down from what was the norm in how "candidates" were prepared for baptism in the UK. This may not, as you put it, mean they are not of "like precious faith" as any of the others, and what took (takes?) place in the UK in terms of "preparation" and understanding may be (have been?) "over-the-top" in its requirement.
DeleteIt is no consequence to me how and what happens in Africa or elsewhere Cd-wise, except to question UK Cds thinking that the Sect is growing in Africa. I think that what Cd`s in different parts of the world believe (and for that matter in the UK), means that they are probably Cd`s in name only.
Mancott, of course it is of no consequence to you, or me, or indeed any other sane person.
DeleteQuite so, Joseph, it is of no consequence, but I find some interest in what is happening, and it is relevant to remarks by British Cds that "Christadelphian numbers are increasing in Africa". And what is happening is not only within the African Christadelphian ecclesias, it is occurring in all the growing Abrahamic Christian religions on that continent. It is syncretization , the merging of traditional African religious beliefs and practices with those of the newly adopted religions. So in my opinion the African Cd (I generalise) is not as the British Cd, who, for example, is expected to have only one partner (at a time), and adhere to Cd traditional beliefs.
DeleteMargaret, yes those CD failed prophesies...: J.Thomas thought that Christ will return to His inheritance " Kingdom of God " in 1966-68, after J.Thomas passed away, Mr.R.Roberts who took over the sect, calculated that Jesus will reign on earth in 1910. But it doesn't stop there, these religious nutter's never give up. Prominent Aussie CD CP Wauchope said that Armageddon will happen in 1934, CD book writer Mr, HP.Mansfield claimed that the world lives in the very shadow of Christ coming 1968, He again said in 1985 that Russian growing power is a witness to return of JC. CD's claim that " very few people in the world are privileged to see these things as we see them, but the scripture is written in such a way, that the key of knowledge is needed to unlock those secrets" they use Prov. 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the honor of kings to search out the matter. So CD's claim to be those kings who know everything. In 1987 Mr.Roger Stockes said, massive coming of nations together against Israel will devastate the Jews. In S.Aus. Woodville ecclesia placed an add in 1999 that Turkey will capitulate to Russia and Russian forces will smash their way to Holy Land. When Russian forces were in Syria, CD's here were worked up that invasion by them of Israel was just a " matter of time ",this was also backed up by Andy Walton in England.. Now this war in Ukraine, is a new same story, Russians are unstoppable and will move on to Turkey and Israel, honestly how much more brainwashing is needed in this sect.
DeleteMost people in CULTS eventually leave or they remain in their CULT because they are incapable of leaving. Sites like this help to create enough momentum for people to launch themselves out of CULT groups. Keep up the good work. Few who escape this CULT will thank you; it's because they're doing what we want them to do -- they're out in the world, flying on their own, occupying themselves with the business of life rather than the bullshit of a CULT.
ReplyDeleteI saw this linked: https://twitter.com/KatFoxhall/status/1544991639684382722
ReplyDeleteIt's Russia! It's the Middle East! It's scary! It's even from 1979! Wait, what?
And this is precisely my point: So many times Christadelphians have said the signs are clear and unmistakable, and every time so far they've been wrong. What reason have we to believe that the current scare is the big one?
Excellent link Jon, much appreciated!
DeleteAlso, did I make a comment re: Robert Roberts not believing in flight, and you did not publish it, or did I lose interest half way through and not submit it?
I haven't seen a comment from you on the flight article.
DeleteRobert Roberts didn`t believe that "lifeless machinery" (I think was the term he used) would be able to fly. "Airships are a dream" he wrote.
DeleteDidn`t he also have something to say about man not being allowed to visit other worlds?
I think this is why many Christadelphians I knew years ago didn`t believe man would get to the Moon.
As I heard it explained (after the fact, obviously, so it was clear by the time I heard it that it was wrong), some relied on Psalm 115:16:
Delete"The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men."
Because the moon was part of that (questionable, but never mind) God would stop men landing on the moon. I did wonder why, say, orbiting the Earth had been fine if the moon was so clearly out of bounds...
There are plenty of people who don't believe that the moon landings did happen......
DeleteI worked for the U.S. federal government for several decades. I discovered 90 percent of what comes out of it to be lies. In that context, I would not be surprised if the moon landings were faked.
ReplyDeleteJody, I'm certainly not going to say I expect the US government (or any other government) to be perfect. But part of that is that I expect governments, as large bureaucracies, to be somewhat dysfunctional. Faking something like the moon landing would be too big and too difficult to do - or at least, to do in a way that no-one knew.
ReplyDeleteI think Neil Armstrong's letter on it makes this point well: https://www.openculture.com/2020/06/neil-armstrong-sets-straight-an-internet-truther-who-accused-him-of-faking-the-moon-landing-2000.html
The Apollo program included an incredible number of people - not just government employees, but also contractors across the country. It involved other nations, and the results were verified by other nations. I have been to the observatory in Australia which relayed that initial moon landing broadcast. Perhaps some of them could have been deceived too, but I think it's very hard to believe they could successfully have deceived or silenced everyone involved.
It also raises questions like "Which of the achievements leading up to the moon landing (by both the US and the USSR) were faked? (the more of them were real, the more plausible it is that they built towards a moon landing, but the more they were fake the harder it would be to cover up). Which of the subsequent space achievements were also faked? (satellites round the earth, the International Space Station, the Voyagers, rovers on Mars, ... Same story - the more of them are real, the more it seems that we did have useful space technology in the 70s and 80s and 90s and 2000s - so why not in 1969? And the more that are fake, the harder to cover up)".
Fair warning - this is heading into off topic territory. I'm not shutting down conversation now, but if it gets extended I might. Christadelphian reactions to the moon landing were much more clearly on topic than general moon landing discussion.
Jon, my point was not to support or endorse those ideas. It was irony really, but seems to me to prove that no matter how crazy the idea, some people will ignore all the evidence to the contrary. Seems that up to 11% of US citizens believe the landings were faked, potentially 30 million people.
DeleteI was thinking about Roberts, and how he did not believe planes would ever exist, and how this exposed how limited his ability to think, and accept that others may be more able than himself, and how this closed off thinking has been transmitted down the generations of Christadelphians to this day.
Joseph, this idea that the pioneers` beliefs should not be questioned was certainly in evidence the last time I was a member of an ecclesia, which would be about 1980. I`m also astonished that young people of today accept that "no dissenting ideas" are allowed at Bible School.
DeletePioneers or no, I guess I always expected to go back to the Bible as the source of truth. And if that meant different ideas from the pioneers, so be it. It's a different ecclesial context.
DeleteHowever, underlying it is I guess the same issue: Trusting as completely true words written a long time ago by people who didn't know what we have now discovered. I'm glad I no longer have to do that.
Christadelphians promote delusions. Governments promote delusions. Is it likely the U.S. Government promoted a moon landing that never really happened? No. But governments lie on a scale large enough to encourage a healthy skepticism.
ReplyDeleteWhere were monitors like you when a recalcitrant poster was busy ranting and attacking in here for months? Do you remember him? He was enraged by the negative commentary about his "sweet and gentle Christadelphians. "Instead, a three sentence comment from me gets immediate threats of censorship.
Assuming you are talking about the situation with a former editor at the start of this year, it was harder to manage because they were a contributing author, but yes, I did take too long to intervene.
ReplyDeleteBut I don't think the cases are parallel - those comments were a problem, but not because they were off topic. It was because they were excluding a significant percentage of commenters here, something I said multiple times that I found unacceptable. In this case, the comment was, in my judgement, off topic, so I preferred to put the warning up front. That does not mean "Discussion immediately over", but it does mean it's discouraged, and I reserve the right to end it at any point.
Jon, sorry for starting this, as I said, I intended commenting more fully on the other post, and the comment here was "off the cuff" as it were. Roberts may have thought that no "airship" would ever exist MAY have been because at that point,(to him) the return of Christ was already overdue and expected imminently, so what would be the point of such a machine once the magic providing saviour was back in town? Put simply, let's say Jesus comes back this August, will Emirates still be flying A380's a week later? Will Christadelphians still be booking luxury cruises, or will they be too busy waving their arms at patients in hospitals telling them they are cured and to leave?
DeleteTo attend a Bible School here, you have to accept what these pioneers believed, and agree not to question it, the more you think about it, the more absurd it seems, which is just one of the reasons I no longer concern myself with their foolish "beliefs".
What does it matter that the person mentioned as attacking other people was a contributing author? He kept engaging in the attacks, month after month. IMO, the plug should have been pulled on him long before it got pulled. As an aside, if this person's "alternative site" for former Christadelphians is getting any traction, I don't detect it.
ReplyDeleteYour own site is a site for people who have defected from Christadelphianism. Many of the defectors relate that they were abused while in the sect, and many are vocal in regarding it -- in retrospect -- as a cult. The author in question rebuked commenters for their vitriol, but surely such vitriol is predictable on a site like this.
This is a great site. It is a fine line to walk between allowing freedom of expression and keeping the site on target. I don't envy you your task. It requires wisdom and tolerance.
The difference was on the technical side - all his comments were published immediately, rather than waiting for my approval as most comments do. And yes, that means I should have removed that permission earlier than I did.
DeleteMargaret, for some context, when the former editor gave up his position, some years ago now, he removed much of his content, and encouraged his other publishers to do likewise, and also to "walk away" from the site. I did so, asked Jon to remove my published content, and rescinded my publishing rights. I assumed that the former editor had done likewise, but was either misled, or misinformed, or maybe deluded, I became fairly inactive, but remained to make the odd comment, mainly because I enjoy the company of Jon, Mancott, Paul, Hassan, etc.
DeleteA few things that the former editor said in his recent ranting phase did make me think though, and confirmed a good number of experience based beliefs. He confirmed that I was never really a proper Christadelphian, not having been born into it. Which was pleasing, it meant I could leave, and stay gone, something he has spectacularly failed to do, and also confirmed just why I was never really accepted in the group.
I do understand why Jon "allowed" the situation to go on a little longer than maybe it should (with hindsight), but it is probably a bit more complex than you might think.
Genetic Christadelphians, like the former editor, never like to have the obvious pointed out to them, be it vitriolic or otherwise the religion is based on being argumentative and dismissive of others, and always has been, if you have had multiple generations of it drummed into you, it's understandable. We gradually move from hating them to pitying them, but they just stay the same.
Yes, there is a line between "genetic Christadelphians" and those who come into the faith. I have noticed it myself. My people were "genetic Christadelphians" and more loopy than others not born into the religion. They believed they had a greater expertise when it came to divining "prophecy." To be around any of them is maddening; within two minutes they invariably try to peddle their religious beliefs, as if those beliefs are something precious. And in reality, it's all idiocy and nonsense. When I am in the presence of my relatives, I immediately find myself recoiling in disgust and frustration.
ReplyDeleteThat resonates with me Margaret, I have 4 generations before me, something I only realised when it was declared at her funeral, that my late Grandma was a third generation believer, as it that was somehow in her favour! Anyway I find meeting one of my CD relatives great, as they act like a normal person of the world. When I meet several of them its different, as if they have a switch that changes them when they meet each other. I cant say with Jo that I either hate them or pity them, for me it more anger.
ReplyDeleteYep, Hassan, I know what you mean. I used to have a dog that would, when encountering other dogs, immediately mount them. It did not matter what gender or size they were, or how amenable they might be or not be to the mounting effort. Then he developed a fixation on mounting purses and briefcases, often while they were still in the grasp of pedestrians. My sense of frustration with him was exactly the same sense of frustration that I felt when CD relatives would within minutes of encountering strangers start selling their religious beliefs. It was a combination of annoyance, disgust, and contempt. Even so, I loved that dog, though CD relatives kept saying, "You need to get rid of him. Who wants a gay dog? He's obviously gay." They would say this not knowing I had the same feelings of annoyance when they would begin their proselytizing routines, and they were prioritized on my list of things to get rid of. In reality, the dog is still around. The relatives I jettisoned.
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