It's a bit different from other posts featured here, but some might appreciate my latest post. There's baptism, and discussion of building a new life after leaving religion - and lots of ducklings.
It's a bit different from other posts featured here, but some might appreciate my latest post. There's baptism, and discussion of building a new life after leaving religion - and lots of ducklings.
Do you ever think.. well heads up ill win both ways.? If there is nothing there at the end of the day i wont know about it anyway.. if there is well i have a chance at something after this?
ReplyDeleteI used to know some Cds who described thinking "heads up I`ll win both ways" as having a doubt which brings faith in the Kingdom down to the level of an insurance policy.
DeleteNo, I don't. I can't see any advantage from that. As far as I can tell, human consciousness is an emergent property of physical processes in the brain. When those physical processes stop working for long enough, we have no reason to believe they can ever be recovered. Hypothetically, yes, there could be some entity or process capturing the pattern and able in some way to restore it, but we've got no reason to believe it. And so I don't think I need to give it any more thought than, say, what I would do if the sun didn't rise tomorrow (hypothetically could happen, but I don't think we have a good reason to believe it will happen).
ReplyDeleteBut there's also more to it than that. Much of our subjective experience of the world is directly connected to our physical bodies (the senses, hunger, hormones, emotions, ...). Depending on what the "something after this" looks like, it may be very very different, to the extent of being a torment rather than a joy. Take something at least theoretically more possible in the future: Uploading brains to the cloud. Firstly, I think it might take a lot of faith to believe that the digital brain was really you, not just a very clever imitation of you. But even if that bar is met, we know that so much of our thinking and feeling is influenced by physical body stuff. What does that mean? Are we having to emulate that in some way, and if so are we getting it right? We're not going to, say, have phantom limb pain that we can't do anything about? Or feel frustrated that we can't control or interact with our new environment in the same way as we did the old?
Incidentally, this is also a problem with the Christadelphian vision of the kingdom. In being changed to be "sinless", to be "perfect", it's not clear in what meaningful sense I'd still be me. Relatives talk about how good it is that they'll be free from sin and impulses to sin, but to me it sounds like they just won't be the same person. At all.
Fair comment. In everyday life there is no advantage as you say. I guess what im trying to say is it still worth hedging your bets just in case after you pass away.? Yes, ive heard the same thing,how great the Kingdom is going to be. Really no one has any clue about any of this. To be honest, the older i get the more i think, i have not seen that much kindness in religion in my life time.Alot of broken familys and tears. Many arguments, fights tears over profecy for one thing, who will be ressurected ? she will get this and he will get that..at the judgement seat.
ReplyDeleteThat was the movie called "The Stepford Wives."
ReplyDeleteIf you want an insurance policy then don't choose the CDs since their religion teaches that salvation is through faith, and faith is the same as belief (they say), so they say, one has to believe the right things at the point baptism, the policy is therefore invalid if one simple asserts a belief they dont have. This must be common since one of the beliefs is that Genesis is literal history - which is obviously not the case. Then the question arises of whether you want the payout, if on your deathbed you are offered a choice of being dead or alive for ever which would you take? The living for ever deal means just that - the deal is there is no way out, you cant ever leave the tiny planet you are on, there is no pain, no suffering, no challenges to overcome, no point surely ? I cant recall if CDs sing John Newton's classic Amazing Grace, probably not since they are down on grace, but I have often pondered the final verse:
ReplyDeleteWhen we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’d first begun.
So ten thousand years is a tiny part of 'for ever', and it is almost possible to imagine a time span of that length - its well within the time that modern humans have been around, but what about 100 billion years? Do I really want to sing God's praise for that long, and still I would only have just begun?
Amazing Grace is in the "Praise the Lord" book, so if you went to an ecclesia that used that you might well have sung it (I have many times in Christadelphian services and youth groups). I've also heard pipers piping it in the Scotland, silhouetted against a peaceful loch. Much better :)
DeleteInteresting the verse you quote, though, since the PtL book alters it for CD theological benefit (first line becomes "When we have reached the thousand years").
You make an interesting point, though, and I agree: I'm not sure I want to live forever (even if I have control of what I'm doing - unlike in that kingdom view), though life always seems too short for everything I want to do. I'd like to see what the world looks like in a hundred, a thousand, a million, a billion years. But not necessarily to live through it all. And I'd also like to see it as it was at many different past times. So perhaps I really want a time machine ;)
"Hedging bets" sounds like it takes effort and has a cost - neither of which suit me if I have no reason to believe in an upside from the hedge. But I also don't know how to do it. If I have no idea of what an after-life might look like, or, say, who I might have to please to get it, or what they might want from me, then anything I do pursuing it might actually make it less likely, not more.
ReplyDeleteI had a friend in CDLand who was an alcoholic, and belonged to Alcoholics Anonymous. She saw an alcoholic under every bush and every bed, probably because she was in search of companions to attend her AA meetings with her.
ReplyDeleteShe proceeded to try to convince me that I had an alcoholism problem. With my brain half addled already from many years of sojourning in Christadelphianism, she half convinced me, and I began going to her AA meetings as her guest. Upon arriving, they told me I needed to attend 90 meetings in order to make an evaluation of whether or not I belonged in AA. Ninety meetings, preferably in 90 days.
I attended the 90 meetings, though not in the requested three months. At the end of my attendance, I decided that in the very unlikely event that I was an alcoholic, I'd rather die face down in a gutter, suffocating in my own vomit, than attend even one more AA meeting with its whining, interminable drivel and its professional cripples. (My apologies to anyone in recovery that this offends.)
In a similar vein, after a ten year absence from the Christadelphians, I had occasion to attend a service -- because there was no way I could avoid attending it. After five minutes of listening to their droning, flatulent, primitive nonsense about why they are the true "Chosen People," I found myself having the same reaction that I had had to AA.
Do not let those uninspired nitwits waste a lovely Sunday morning for you. Do not let them waste even one Sunday morning of your life. You have a limited number of Sunday mornings in a lifetime -- far less than you're inclined to believe. Do you remember anything from five Sundays ago, when you were sitting in the midst of the zombies in some "ecclesia?" Neither do they. Neither is it worth remembering.
Dump it like any other rubbish, and live the Sundays you've got left.
A big amen to that! And your post reminds me that we have lived experiences of coercive control and cult-like behaviour, so it’s good to listen to our gut. I ignored warning signs and got entangled in a couple of culty things since. Living and learning and loving my Sundays too.
DeleteAmanda, your last paragraph just about sums up what I say on the rare occasions I'm asked why I walked away from the CDs. We only have one life, so why waste it away chasing after a future fantasy world, just because our parents do. What a waste of a Sunday to sit listening to the droning of the latest speaker who has spent the past week poring over his Bible, trying to make it relevant to modern events.
ReplyDeleteOn the rare occasions I make an appearance at an ecclesia (weddings, funerals of cd acquaintances etc.) I am astounded at the open mouthed acceptance of pseudo science, and the mental gymnastics required to believe all they are told.
They are prisoners of their own making. In the search for "meaning" and "purpose" in this existence, many become similarly lost. And they become countless, these tragic figures.
ReplyDeleteChristadelphian here for nearly 48 years. 50 years ago I read Russia, Israel Christ and you by Percy Bilton. I was more into cricket and tv back then! It majored on Russia and power to the North invading Israel and resistance from UK, USA and some Saudi Arabs in south culminating in Christ's return. Surprisingly, 50 years later it is much more certain and realistic than it was then!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteUm, no. Russia is bogged down in Ukraine, and isn't looking like having either a purpose or sufficient force to move onto Israel.
Delete(and Russia invading Israel is terrible prophecy interpretation anyway...)
Modern Scholars agree.
DeleteI am new to this site i was a cd 50 years ago and since i left by my choice have no regrets ive seen the word through new eyes done things. seen things.tried.things i Never would have had i still been in fellowship.i agree if i had not been born into a cd family. I would not have taken the step to my baptisim.
ReplyDeleteThis is something I once raised with a Cd when I was a Cd, "If I had not been born into a Cd family and into another family would I have been a Catholic/Mormon/Methodist etc." The reply was always, "Ah, but we have been `Called`."
DeleteI found grappling with questions about mortality one of the challenges too. Also, we had all our time taken up with meetings and readings so it’s challenging to build an ‘after life’ in the here and now. I have found it helps to read about other people’s expeiences leaving other religions or churches. It helps me remember that so many people are told they are in ‘the truth’ … but how can they all be right? Here are some memoirs that I think other ex-christadelphians might enjoy as we explore ‘the after life’ after leaving. Any other recommendations? https://medium.com/@NomeBee/8-good-reads-about-cults-in-australia-b3b939ba62a1
ReplyDeleteI’ve found it helped me to read other people’s memoirs of being born into beliefs that they were told was ‘the truth’. Here are some of my faves so far https://medium.com/@NomeBee/8-good-reads-about-cults-in-australia-b3b939ba62a1?source=friends_link&sk=cbd952ef4c859fd4fac71e8edbfedf48
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteWas just amongst some CDs, helping care for an elderly CD member. I have been doing 95 percent of the labor, and not just because she lives nearest to me (translation: they don't want to be bothered with her). In the midst of talking to the CDs, I made some comment using the word "God." Was immediately told that I'd infringed upon their comfort zone by taking the Lord's name in vain. I nearly became enraged, yet stuffed the response down.
Once again, there I was, with their batty little cult trying to exert control over me through something as simple as directing the words I could use. The balls. Yet I knew if I began shrieking about cult behavior, they'd only end up thinking I was the loon, and not them. I will limit contact with them in the future. I even find myself wondering why I am helping the old woman. The most obvious answer is that I am a better "Christian" than the ones who call themselves "Christians."
Donald, In my 10 years as a Christadelphian, I didn't meet any Christians. In the previous 33 years, I met plenty, and in the years that followed, I have too, quite a few of them who didn't even believe in Jesus. It could have been bad luck, or it could have been the way it is. I heard of a member that succumbed to Alzheimer's, and met the member in the street, long after I had left. They got kicked out for non-attendance, however they did get warning letters.
DeleteOddly enough, you can become a bloated, obese alcoholic in that meeting and, so long as you keep turning up, and filling the collection bag, paying the AB's restaurant bills, and drive a swanky car, all is well and your place in the Kingdom is assured!
My advice is that you should do what your conscience tells you to do to assist this elderly person, but avoid all other contact with these people. You lay down with dogs, and you get up with fleas.
Joseph, you had a "bad time" with the Cd`s. I didn`t have nearly so much, but I did come up against stick-in-the-mud attitudes, some inconsistences of (their professed idea of) behaviour, meanness, and some individuals who were apt to live the "pure" life at the meetings, and not elsewhere. It is possible, and likely, that these inconsistences of accepted behaviour will be found in most societies.
DeleteHowever, I know of Cd`s who do try to do the best for their neighbour, those both in an out of their faith, and in the Cd Care Homes my experience is that they do go the extra mile to look after those in their care. Your experience has left a residual bad taste within you, but I also believe that you have successfully moved on.
In the many years I attended CD meetings, not once did anyone ever invite me home to dinner. Not once did anyone visit me in the hospital. Not once did anyone do anything that reflected an appreciation of what I brought to the ecclesia (my labor, my sense of humor, my loyalty, etc.). There was lots of talk about kindness and compassion and how to care for "brothers and sisters." After I stopped believing in their nonsensical doctrine, the absence of those things I've mentioned made it much easier to depart. In that regard, I was lucky. All in all, it was not a place where the members or life were celebrated, just a lot of groaning and whining about the apocalypse and approaching global slaughter.
ReplyDeleteThey can stuff it. The amazing thing is that any of them are still around. It is a testimonial to the power of peer pressure and brainwashing.
Instead of ventilating recollections and grievances about unacceptable behaviour by ecclesial members, would it not be more profitable and helpful for those looking here for support because of their doctrinal doubts, to concentrate on examining -- repeating what already has been written if necessary -- where we have found the Cds to be in error?
DeleteGood point. But a cult is more than its mere doctrinal errors or the puerile mysticism and superstitions it has made incarnate. The treatment or mistreatment of members is also very often part of what makes a cult the nightmarish morass that it has become.
DeleteYes, correct, and if an ecclesia is as nightmarish to be in as some of the posts here would suggest, then any right-thinking person is better out of them than in, even if they depart to another Cd group or other denomination. My point about the best use of the blog is better understood if a refresher-glance is taken at "What we are about" at the top of the blog. I believe that following the guidance there is the most profitable way to use the blog.
DeleteI would agree with you. You do that, with all of the rights of free expression that this site offers. And I'll vent in my own way.
DeleteYes, I can see both points of view here, however my suspicion (which is of course influenced by my "lived experience") is that the numbers of people leaving because of doubts of belief, or doubts in CD doctrine, as a PRIMARY cause is probably less common than those leaving for other reasons, abusive/controlling/belittling/domineering/nepotistic behaviour/marital breakdowns by other members or leadership, will be much higher than those who got up one morning and realised that CD beliefs and doctrines are equally wacky to all other religions and denominations. I cannot think of a single case of somebody leaving where I was, that had its roots in doctrinal doubts, these matters were always consequent to the other reasons.
DeleteI know people who left where (as far as I can tell) the doubts about doctrine and about the reliability of the Bible etc. were the primary cause. And was to a fair extent for me too. Other things triggered me to ask "Are these things true?" (and those other things weren't "other believers behaving badly" or similar), but it was only once I was fairly confident that none of it was true that I finally officially quit.
DeleteI was booted from a very conservative South African ecclesia for "marrying outside the Truth" without first discussing the upcoming marriage with the AB (Arranging Brethren/Board). They had in mind for me a sad but lovely spinster (note I'm not saying she was a bad person) who would have gone into a marriage with me without a lot of enthusiasm. They demanded I appear before the AB -- in fact, all 30 of the adult male members would have been in attendance at the meeting -- to discuss what had happened and my failure to give the ecclesia notice of the marriage. I told them I was not going to attend such a meeting and they could get stuffed. They chaperoned me to the chapel's door and went back inside without me.
DeleteThree years later, they'd reconsidered their position, and decided to liberalize their response. We were invited to return to the ecclesia. At that time, I decided to look over more of their doctrine more keenly. I did so. The nonsensical nature of much of the doctrine became apparent as I made my examination.
I would agree that it is usually through some precipitating event -- some form of perceived mistreatment -- that most of us go on to actually examine Christadelphian doctrine with a more critical eye. In hindsight, then, such incidents can be seen as providential and a blessing.
My family and I have peripheral relationships now with some mainstream religious institutions, but we also examine those institutions and relationships very carefully, and leave them when it is appropriate to do so. It is clear even in many big denominations and sects, much of what is occurring is attempts at behavioral control, a financial racket, etc.
There are so many potential traps and pitfalls in life. We are much happier avoiding them and skirting around them.
Jon, I think that Mancott left because he moved to an Ecclesia and wasn't happy so stayed away a bit and only then got to doubting. Sure he will clarify that.
DeleteReligious groups are well aware of the risk that people who stay away for a while are "at risk" of leaving altogether, as their thinking changes (or improves).
Almost correct, Joseph. The Ecclesia I moved to, I stayed there for fifteen years. It was a difficult move, coming from Birmingham where the ecclesias were lively, welcoming and all seemed to sing from the same hymn sheet -- which they did literally. The move was in 1965. The one that I moved to rarely had newcomers and seemed suspicious of incomers from Birmingham, for some reason. I tried to get a CYC going, to allow flowers in the meeting room to cheer the dreary place up. No discussion at bible class allowed. It was very hard work. I started to wonder where members enthusiasm for Truth was. They seemed to be moribund. I was gradually worn down and starting to question what it was all about, though I stuck it out because I didn`t want to drag my two young children on a 60 miles round trip each Sunday to the next nearest ecclesia. As Joseph has indicated I decided to have a breather from attendance for a while. Weeks turned into months. During this time my brain was becoming freed from my former indoctrination. I knew Cd`s hadn`t "got it right", but wasn`t sure what the alternative was. In a sense, it was taken out of my hands, as, without more than a few hours warning, I was informed that at that evening`s AB meeting I was to be disfellowshipped. I spent the next few years examining in detail the truth of The Truth, and I found The Truth, as truth, didn`t hold water. I have found that the bible is a remarkable book, but I don`t now believe that it is the Word of God as believed by Cds.
DeleteMancott, thank you for the (expected) clarification. Even with my not quite correct memory, it still points to what I was getting at, and "Edmund Marans" too, namely that the loss of belief seems to follow some other event or non event, rather than simply springing from nowhere.
DeleteIt has always interested me why it is that some Christadelphians are so keen to disfellowship people, especially in this day and age. It is almost as though they get some sort of pleasure from doing so.
This morning, I looked again at some figures from the JWs (none are available for Christadelphians) which suggest that preaching efforts of 10,000 hours plus are required for each new baptism, yet they, like Christadelphians, seem, once their minds are made up, extremely keen to hoof people out.
Joseph, rest assured, if you and I entered a memory contest you would win. I think that those who pause their attendance at an Ecclesia probably always do so because somewhere in their consciousness they have a niggle of a doubt lurking about their involvement, either with the members or the doctrine. Their absence causes, or allows them, to reason without the constantly repeated mirror-like indoctrination at meetings, which maintains that strength of indoctrination. Cd`s in the Ecclesias never involve themselves in a scientific test of their understanding, because in their thinking there is no need. They believe that they already have The Truth.
DeleteHave a look at the East Kilbride FB post of 26th November 2022, where they post a they verse commanding withdrawal. The interesting thing is the comments that follow, where two CDs throw bible verses at each other. Then the EK person claims God is on his side 'Why are you arguing with God?'. At the heart of why they have been quick to disfellowship in the past is not Paul's letter to Thess, that's the legitimisation, it because they are culty, and the way they get control is to threaten being thrown out. For this to work the threat has to be real and people have to be thrown out. Right now it seems the practise is not that common, overall Cds seem less keen on chucking people or whole ecclesias out of fellowship. I suspect its because they are down to a few thousand members now.
ReplyDeleteYeah, the East Kilbride person has pretty clearly plucked a verse out of context that said what they wanted it to say (in the KJV, anyway...), then got upset when others called them out on it. I remember when I was in hearing the expression "text without context is pretext", and that definitely applies here.
DeleteThankfully, I saw early on the problems that FaceBook was causing, amongst the Brethren and Sisters as well as amongst family and friends, and never got involved with it, so I cannot see what the East Kilbride lot had to say on this matter, so thanks for the report!
DeleteThe old saying "what is on a sober man's mind, is on a drunkard's lips", does does come to mind though, as it did when they were babbling on about the vaccine and the "Sodomites" a couple of years ago, and while most Ecclesias do have the sense to "moderate their drinking (of the spirit)", and know when to STFU, as anybody who has ever been out drinking with friends/colleagues, knows, some just do not, and it ends up in some sort of disturbance outside a kebab shop at 03:00, or in this case, an Ecclesia making fools of themselves and dragging the religion down, but probably only voicing what the rest of the timid souls are actually thinking.
Hassan, they are indeed down to a few thousand, but never fear, several hundred Iranians are being baptised every month, they will soon be back up to strength and telling us all how to live our lives.
Once the tribunal decisions are made, one way or the other, then those Iranians will disappear from their midst no doubt. I think the CDs are a popular religion to convert to because of the long drawn out conversion process, allows some demonstration of conversion. Of course these folks have nothing else to do. I sometimes amuse myself by reading the tribunal decisions:
DeleteHe [Mr Cox the recording bro of Swindon apparently] was not surprised that the appellant had not yet been baptised, as some people take longer than others, and need to be sure that you are ready to undertake the life-long commitment that comes from baptism. He explainer there is a rigorous test and examination to prove your sincerity before being baptised. The appellant had been through a 22 lesson and a 40 lesson course first.
16. Mr Cox said he had considered if the appellant was adopting Christianity to bolster his claim but once he got to know him, he found him to be sincere.
17. He confirmed that the appellant had lead study groups and acts as interpreter at the Farsi language Tuesday class which is mostly Iranians and a few Iraqis, the majority of whom are asylum-seekers. When they had had the first 2 or 3, he was concerned that the church was being used but not now.
IMHO its obvious the CDs are being used.
Yep, like lots of other sects and denominations, they're just being played for suckers. They should put signs in front of their churches: "Visas for Sale."
DeleteRelevant to this: I was reading the most recent CMPA financial statement (through to December 2021). This struck me:
Delete"External factors
An important external factor is the decline in the size of the English-speaking Christadelphian community in Britain (but not in the developing world) and especially the actively reading but the ageing segment of our community. This has necessitated a consideration of means of encouraging greater interest. Marketing efforts are made continuously, including by publicising new material, printed and electronic, and we are using social media and other means of communicating to Christadelphian ecclesias as appropriate. We are working to refine and further develop that important strategy. A welcome change has been a continuing influx of non-English-speaking Iranian converts in the UK, and in response we have begun producing material in Farsi."
Incidentally, I hadn't been aware that CMPA had made a loss each of the last five years. They still have a fair amount of money, but are starting to get worried about it.
Another section that interested me:
Delete"Public benefit
The trustees acknowledge their requirement to demonstrate that the charity has a charitable purpose that is for the public benefit. The trustees confirm that they have paid due regard to the Charity Commission guidance on public benefit in deciding what activities to undertake.
The books and periodicals published by the Association are available for purchase by everyone at our Registered Office, by post, online and at an outlet in Solihull. Booklets and pamphlets on religious issues are also available, as are materials for use in Sunday Schools that are open to all children wishing to attend. We continue to extend the range of booklets designed specifically for non-Christadelphians."
I'm sure I've commented before that I'm not particularly happy with "advancement of religion" being a valid charitable aim (I believe both in the UK and here in Australia). But it is interesting that they have to justify their existence by saying "Some of our materials can be used by non-Christadelphians, honest!"
Interesting Jon, It seems that they are actually spending £100k a year more than they are getting in through sales. They take the generosity of their community for granted I think, relying on gifts and legacies to keep going. I did wonder why the magazine had suddenly decided to merge with Testimony. Looks like the CDs are no longer large enough to support a publishing arm.
DeleteHassan, I was looking at their statements because I was curious about the Testimony merger and hoped to find something interesting. The Testimony organisation itself didn't have detailed financial statements available, though I think that might just be because it was closed. It worked from a much lower budget than CMPA (I'm assuming no wages, for a start...), and was also spending more than it received, though it was pretty near parity in 2020 and 2021.
DeleteHere's what CMPA had to say about the Testimony in their goals for 2022:
" To merge the magazine with a similar Christadelphian charity and its magazine, ‘Testimony” which was on the point of closing; to continue to make its extensive archive available, to stock and market its remaining publications, and to integrate some of its committee members into our committee and trustee structure."
Which does make it sound like they were going to close anyway, so merging provided benefits for both sides.
In one ecclesia I attended, the Alpha Male in charge ran the place using fear and intimidation. He'd bark, and they'd all grovel. Then some old lady wrote him an anonymous letter, setting out bible verses explaining how in matters of discipline he should approach ecclesial members with gentleness, compassion, kindness, etc. He had a proxy get up behind the podium and tell everyone that the anonymous letter writer had "forfeited salvation" unless they came forward to be identified. The old woman came to me and asked me if she should do so.
ReplyDeleteI told her: "Not unless you want your head served to you on a plate."
What a hoot.
I go to a CD funeral soon. I called several of the CDs I once worshipped with, to ask for directions, because I am unfamiliar with the city where the funeral is being held. None returned my calls. Such nice people. I am wondering what kind of reception I will get at the funeral; some CDs know I regard them in a very negative light.
ReplyDeleteI don't think you should bother to go, unless you particularly want to. It's clear they don't want to talk to you, and the person that you are remembering is now permanently dead, and will not know or care whether you go or not.
DeleteMy advice is, instead of tormenting yourself by going, and listening to more of their nonsense, take you family or friends to a place you like, and spend an hour remembering, and if you have a religion now, thanking God for the deceased friendship, contributions etc, without this sect of clowns interfering with your thoughts.
I went to the funeral of the CYC leader some years ago. One of the persons I grew up with said to me, in a rather nasty way, "Didn`t expect to see you here", as if I shouldn`t have gone, or wasn`t welcome. I just replied that nothing could have kept me away.
ReplyDeleteIf you feel you really must go, fine, (it may be ok), otherwise send a
condolence card.
I watched another Cd funeral recently via Zoom. 5 minutes about the deceased, and 35 minutes exhortation/lecture/bible class talk.
Thanks for this feedback. I want and need to attend, to support a family member who will be at the service. If I encounter any foolishness, without saying a word I'll just turn and quietly walk away. They'll get the message. Sometimes saying nothing says it all, and the decorum of the service will be maintained. And yes, at all of the CD funeral services I've attended, it is usually five minutes about the dead person, and the rest of the service is proselytizing, because many of the attendees are outsiders. And, indeed, it feels tawdry and cheap and like an insult to the departed.
DeleteInteresting, as that is what happens at Jehovah Witness/Watchtower funeral services.
DeleteIn sects/cults like the CDs and JWs, promotion of the religion is everything. So of course they'll exploit a funeral service and use it as a vehicle to proselytize. To their thinking, the dead person is just a pile of meat in a box, and the opportunity to use the gathering to advertise their cult is more important than sentimental memories or reflections on whatever the person achieved in their lifetime.
DeleteThis is the sort of thing that in time made me reject all notions of God and religion as being foolishness. The dead body in the coffin can't even be remembered honorably without a lot of voodoo prancing and praying around the box.
Donna, It's no surprise that they do this. When I was a member, they did just about everything they could to isolate themselves from the local community, now, with the permanent suspension of public lectures at many, if not most Ecclesias, there is now not even a pretence of engagement with outsiders. All the time I was a member, and probably since, the arranging/speaking brethren openly mocked all the other Churches and people for casually attending Christmas and Easter services, even going so far as not holding their own meetings on years when Christmas fell on a Sunday, out of fear that they may be mistaken for such people!
DeleteAs per the article in the "Tidings" magazine, June 2020, Christadelphians in the UK have been able to convert less than 5 people a year to the religion for "decades", as per this quote from the article:
"Words like “miracle,” “revival” and “Pentecost” are in circulation. But that’s only true if your benchmark is the handful (or in some years less than the fingers on a hand) of baptisms of genuinely non-Christadelphian contacts per year for the whole of the UK in recent decades".
....whilst being able to convert 50 non English speaking asylum seekers per month. The sudden presence of indigenous, non-Christadelphians in their meeting room (for a funeral), is probably overwhelming, and triggers a need to "help" them to find the correct way to live.
So....all the local CDs are now salivating that an economic collapse is about to start, because some U.S. banks are imploding. They have no idea what they're wishing for; my grandparents lived through the Great Depression and nearly didn't survive it. And what a sick worldview to hold: to pray for war and disasters and famines and suffering. It is really kind of sick, to be motivated by such thinking. They are their own version of "The Walking Dead."
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteFound the following clip from Carelinks, an entity which appears to be run by one Beverley Russell, to remediate damage done by the CDs, in part to draw CD defectors back into the fold. She writes below about "Our Losses."
"OUR LOSSES
The subject of the losses in our church worries many of the members. The thought of it sometimes overwhelms us, and we wonder in fear how long it will take before the demise of our Christadelphian religion. However we can ask ourselves some questions in that anguish.
Is it our name, or what we stand for, that is important?
Although, according to statistics, Christadelphians are not replenishing ourselves in the Western world, we can take comfort that those in the less fortunate countries are being baptised in great numbers, not into Christadelphia, but into the great truths that we espouse, in the name of Christ. So, on the mission fields we may be making more Christadelphians.
"
I wonder how many of these new recruits join to receive the aid that is offered by CD missionaries? I wonder how many join as a prelude to arranging a plane ticket to the missionaries' home countries (in order to have some contacts when they land on our shores)?
I have met some of these "converts." They are a dime a dozen, and appear willing to convert to any ideology to escape from the Third World conditions in which they find themselves.
I think Beverley's concerns are well founded. Her stale little sect has little to offer. So....never mind....we can swap in some newly arrived bodies from Uganda.
Anon, that quote is 19 years old now, but still relevant, as the "losses" spoken of have decimated the Christadelphians over the intervening time. While Beverley, was, I think, speaking of the situation in Australia, the important part is that she seems unconcerned that the converts are not being made to Christadelphianism, but to something that might look a bit like it.
DeleteIn the UK, the loss in ability to convert even 5 people a year from "the outside", over "decades" (Christadelphian sources, not mine)is contrasted with the seeming ability to convert 700+ Iranian asylum seekers to the belief system every year, and yet, to an outside observer such as myself, the resulting converts bear not even a superficial resemblance to what you or I might know as Christadelphians.
If you look at this link, you can see that the Christadelphians have an established presence in Folkstone, UK meeting in a local village hall:
https://ukchristadelphians.org.uk/info.asp?act=ecc&id=96
However, if you do a google search for "Folkstone Iranian Christadelphian Church", and click on the photos, you will see something that looks very different, and is but 5 miles distant from the "other" CD operation in the town. Why do these people not meet together with the other Christadelphians? Why do they harp back to their former country from which they "fled"? Why are they a Church and not an Ecclesia? Importantly, why are they all young men, and why are NONE of them wearing suits or indeed even smart casual clothes? (second hand suits cost around £15 in the UK, less than half of the pocket money provided weekly to asylum seekers in the UK. My Kenyan friend has a side hustle exporting bundles of suits for his family to sell on in Kenya).
Are they REALLY Christadelphians, or is something else going on here?
Already, more than half of UK Christadelphians between the ages of 20 and 40 are this new type of Christadelphian, and if you watch ANY of the lectures given for these people, the speakers have adopted the same casual approach to dress and general appearance.
This is very odd to me, when as a Christadelphian, I attended the meeting on hot days without a suit and tie, I was informed that this was not acceptable, so in future, I didn't attend. This was preferable than me not being dressed correctly. Another member and his mother were forced out. How times change!
Joseph, I can't comment on the rest of it, but I've seen much more variation in dress code than you describe. There are around ten ecclesias in Melbourne (though it's probably changed a bit since my time). A few have the very strict "Yes, it has to be suit and tie", but others are more casual, including the one I grew up in and the one I was member of for my last ten years. Even as a speaker the only times I would have worn suit and tie were when speaking at other ecclesias.
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ReplyDeleteDress codes vary from ecclesia to ecclesia, country to country, and from decade to decade. Some ecclesias have become relaxed about their dress codes -- maybe even most. My sister was ejected from a meeting 30 years ago for wearing blue jeans. Today, the same ecclesia would probably notice the blue jeans, but wouldn't make any comment. Their need for warm bodies to fill pews is too great.
In any event, when it happened my sister left quietly, but would never return for any reason. I also recall that a "Sister" died and had been living in a local gay community and had many gay friends. They came to her funeral, and during the eulogy some neutral and even friendly comments were made regarding the gay people present in the hall. While the commentary was made by an outsider who was reminiscing about the "Sister," even so, such a thing was unthinkable just 20 or 30 years ago. There would have been a riot.
Leah Remini, a survivor of Scientology, was on TV yesterday and made several germane comments. All cults have several basic points in common: each presents itself as having some unique "Truth" (or interpretation of the "Truth"), each love bombs you to get you inside, each presents itself as the only means to "salvation," and each holds you prisoner in the greatest prison of all -- your own mind.
ReplyDeleteQuite right Georgia, however I don't think that the Christadelphians could possibly be described as a cult anymore, especially in the UK, when for more than 20 years, they have, by their own admission, been only able to recruit 5 devotees a year from outside of their own ranks.
DeleteI see them more as a Dollar (Pound) store Heyoka that has got mixed up with people traffickers these days.
Not only that, Joseph, cults normally have a leader, often a charismatic individual, and Cd Ecclesias are autonomous, though each may have a strong individual who rules the roost.
DeleteTheir weakness is that they`ve never moved forward, changed -- for the most -- because they believe, as Georgia has pointed out, that they are the ones who have the Truth.
Were they to examine their beliefs scientifically, "Is what we believe still tenable in, the light of the latest archaeological, geographical and historical research results", they might have pause for thought.
Even cults often fizzle. The death of organized religion, I believe, is a hallmark of human progress. The faster it happens, the better.
ReplyDeleteCDs are mostly harmless, but not to be underestimated. Alan Paton grew up in CDism, and wrote books that very substantially dismantled Apartheid in a manner that ultimately left whites in South Africa with empty hands. While Apartheid needed to end, their complete dispossession was not a happy solution -- certainly not for them, anyway. Paton's wife now shuns both CDism and the modern South Africa, and returned to Britain. "My husband's influence, much of it deriving from Christadelphianism, may have done more harm than good," she is quoted as saying. She may be correct: whites are now banned from much of the labor force, and preparations are beginning for real estate confiscations.
DeleteOn another note, Scientology is smaller than CDism in terms of its adherents' numbers, but Scientology has succeeded in doing a lot of damage to the world. Its founder(s) are also dead, but it hasn't changed that cult's detrimental impact on the world. It is said that its stable of celebrities and politicians are manipulated through the cult's possession of blackmail files.
When a group tells you it is positive it has "The Truth," you can be sure it does not. When a group is stuck rigidly in its doctrines or ideologies, you can be sure it's not a healthy organism.
In response to the first comment about hedging your bets for an afterlife/kingdom, the same thought process can be applied for the reverse. If there is no omnipotent being to help and guide you in this life, to help your neighbor, to make this world a better place, etc, then it's up to you/us to do it with all our effort. If there does turn out to be one, then cool. The Being should be happy you worked so hard doing what it was supposed to do, and you didn't arrogantly isolate yourself from the world, pretending to be a good person (because you avoided a few more "sins" than someone else), while waiting for a miracle to do the work for you.
ReplyDeleteWhat sentient and intelligent being bases its entire life on the approval or disapproval of an imaginary entity in the clouds? The existence of God cannot be substantiated. Base your own existence on what your five senses tell you is real.
DeleteThat wasn't my point at all, but ok. I was just implying that Pascal's Wager is flawed, because you can use the same logic to live your life as if there isn't a god/afterlife.
DeleteI think that you both have valid points. My "lived experience" to use a fashionable term, is that Christadelphians, along with most other religious people, hedge their bets pretty much all of the time. Perhaps Christadelphians are just a bit more hypocritical about how they go about this than others are. They apply a timescale to "the return", which is always "imminent", but then ensure that they have a well stuffed, index linked pension that ensures a nice new car every year or two, luxury cruises, etc, etc, which to imbeciles like me, means that they needed to heavily "interpret" Matthew 6:19-21 to suit themselves, and their own timescales. Not many of them choose to live by a "plain reading" of Luke 12:22-34 either. Likewise, when they find themselves suffering from an incurable cancer, they are far more likely to turn to the "wisdom of man", and seek out a doctor, to prolong their miserable existence in this "wicked world, than they are to accept the results of prayer, and embrace their early ticket to the Kingdom. Discuss.
DeleteJody, "The existence of God cannot be substantiated". I`ve been looking into what the ancient Israelites believed. Without a doubt they worshipped for many centuries several different "gods", and were a group of people, along with Canaanites and other peoples, that were polytheistic in their life of worship. The two writers of the two early versions of the early books of the bible clearly believed in different "gods". It seems that it wasn`t until post Babylonian exile that polytheistic worship became to an end and one of these "gods" became the main god to worship, and became the "Almighty God" which we read about in the 7th Century BCE redacted Old Testament of today.
DeleteI conclude that Man created God, rather than the other way round.
Ironic, since their whole schtick presently is that "we are strictly monotheistic." It is evident through archaeological evidence that during portions of their history they were not.
DeleteAs someone once said, "History is a set of myths about the past that a majority of the public agrees upon."
Much of the Old Testament is myth, but that doesn`t mean it doesn`t have a basis in traditional stories of the time.
DeleteA good meaning of myth is: "A symbolic narrative, usually of unknown origin and at least partly traditional, that ostensibly relates to actual events and that is especially associated with religious beliefs."
For example, the story of the biblical flood (Genesis has two separate and different accounts as you might already know) has it`s origin in Sumerian stories from much earlier, which have come to light on cuneiform tablets, now in The British Museum.
What has particularly interested me of late is, tracing the ancient Israelite beliefs in their different pagan and Canaanite gods, and where these references can be found in the Old Testament.
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